Hey now, welcome to another edition of the inside BS show. My name is Dave Lorenzo and today we're going to fix an area where you absolutely suck. I'm going to tell you because I've seen you.

Yeah, I'm talking to you. You're a miserable, lousy leader. Let's face it.

We all are because nobody teaches us how to lead. They may teach us how to manage and if they teach us anything at all, it's how to sharpen the pencils, how to answer the phones and how to read the financial reports. People don't care about any of that stuff.

The people who work for you, the reason they're going to leave is because you're terrible at the stuff we're going to talk about today. So here's what you need to do. If you're driving pull over, if you're in your office and you're trying to do billable work, yeah, I see you put your pencil down and listen to what we're going to talk about for the next 25 30 minutes because this could change everything for you.

It could reduce your turnover. It could give you the opportunity to recruit better, more qualified employees. It could increase your profit and it will absolutely reduce the amount of stress in your life.

We're talking about leadership and we've got Renee Scudder with us today. She's a leadership expert. So please join me in welcoming Renee to the inside show.

Renee, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, Dave. It's a pleasure to be here.

Um, now was I too harsh? People suck at leadership, don't they? Well, I would say that mostly people aren't trained to be leaders and they advance for a variety of reasons so we can all improve our skills as leaders. So they advanced to the level of their own incompetence and it's up to you now to help them correct all the mistakes that people have foisted upon them. Okay, so you're off the hook folks.

It's not your fault. It was the person who promoted you. Renee's going to fix that for you today.

So Renee, what is the biggest error you see in promoting people to leadership these days? How, how, how does this happen? I would say the biggest error that I see is that people are promoted for skill or a variety of reasons, but we have a gap in training people on very research based long proven tenets of business and I think it would be wonderful if anytime someone was promoted, they get a leadership coach or consultant to help them, particularly in those first 90 days. So you brought up something that is the bane of my existence. I work with a lot of people in business development.

I work with a lot of people in sales and you know what we do in sales? We take the best sales person and we pull them right out of the field where he's making us a lot of money and we say, you're now going to be a manager. Congratulations. And he's looking at us like, so I'm going to take a pay cut and I'm going to listen to people gripe all day and I don't know why I'm doing this.

What is the right way Renee to look for leaders for any type of organization? It doesn't have to be a sales organization. What should we be looking for in a leader? Well, a couple of things. I think it's very important to understand the objectives of the job first and to understand the culture of your company.

So you're looking for someone who would be a fit in that culture. And then though in this environment, leaders who have communication abilities, who have a sense of self awareness and self management, which are two high emotional intelligence competencies and really doing almost a behavioral event model of interviewing, which is digging deep into examples of how they've handled a variety of leadership situations and have them walk you through that detail by detail to see and hear how they think and approach a situation. And that coupled of course with the skill they need to perform the objectives of the job.

All right. Now help us understand the difference between management and leadership Renee because they're two different things. What's the difference? Yes.

I think at most simple level management is tactical and working with people on clear objectives and it's more tactical. Leadership is more strategic of more visionary and leading in a broader range. Although still responsible for objectives and key results.

It's almost tactical versus strategic, but all all driving results. And where does the people element come in? Because I've, I've seen a lot of really smart analytical people fail in a leadership role. So where does the people element come into all of that? We're back again with another Sandrowski business minute.

Today we're talking with Catherine Raker, Sandrowski corporate advisors, tax expert. Catherine, is it risky to deduct home office expenses? It is not risky to deduct a home office expense. The IRS is very specific about a home office being a designated space that is only used for business purposes.

In today's current environment, a lot of us work from home. We have the ability to work from home. It's safer for us to work from home.

However, if you're an employee, you cannot deduct a home office expense. You have to be self-employed to be able to take that deduction. All right, folks, you heard it right from the tax expert at Sandrowski corporate advisors.

If you want to deduct your home office expense, you have to be self-employed. If you have questions about this or any other tax issue, you need to call Catherine Raker at Sandrowski corporate advisors and you can reach her at 866-717-1607. That's 866-717-1607.

This has been your Sandrowski business minute with Catherine Raker. That is such an awesome question. There's a lot of research on this and there's an evidence that, I mean, it goes to Dan Goldman's work in emotional intelligence.

And then years ago, when it first started, it was a soft skill and people really didn't understand. But after many, many years of research and evidence based surveys and things, they are showing that you and I can come into a company with the same superstar skill. We're both geniuses, superstar skill, but it is the leader with emotional intelligence competencies who exceeds and succeeds in driving teams and results better, better.

So that's a real distinguishing factor. All right. So now I think I've got the right person, right? I'm running a business.

I think I've got the right person. I look around and I see people who are informal leaders and I teach them some of the competencies that are necessary to be successful and they are absorbing the information very well. I think that we're in good shape and I'm going to go ahead and promote that person now and I'm following your advice.

I'm going to go out and find a leadership coach to help this person right from the beginning to make sure they're most successful. What do I look for in a leadership coach? Yes. So first it would help to identify where you see gaps in this person.

If you have identified them. Otherwise it would be important to work with someone who can identify those gaps and then target in on them. Um, from my perspective, I see that there are multi dimensions for leaders.

So what I say with my own business is, uh, helping clients become high performing multi dimensional leaders. So that includes things such as masterful communication skills, analytics, ability to be visionary. Also understanding leadership styles and a coin, uh, uh, um, a term coined by, I believe it was Sterling out of Sausalito, California, style switching.

So understanding the research based management styles and then knowing which one to call upon in certain situations will drive results better. Underlying core values. Also championing diversity.

We live in a very globalized world now and there's a technological divide as well. So, uh, in my process has seven principles of leadership and they include all of those elements which are research based. So I would say whoever you work with, what is their background? What is their training? How can they discern the leadership area that one needs to be coached on and then coming in with core leadership principles that are evidence based that will give them tools to apply.

So it's not all heady. It's like this is research based here situations. How can you apply them in your current situation? One of the books that I think is really wonderful is the first 90 days for anybody who's coming into a business.

Um, this is a very wonderful, almost primer for how to jump into the beginning of a job in addition to understanding that there really are important components of leadership that can be learned and applied. Okay. So we've, we've got, we've got the, the right person we think and you're, you're right there with them to help them make sure that they're on track to being, to being successful.

Let's take the other end of the spectrum. Let's take the salty old dog, right? Who is, who's been in and I'm going to pick on men here because I just, I would rather vilify a man than a woman. It's just the way I'm wired.

So we're going to pick this salty old dog who's been doing things the same way forever and ever and life has just kind of passed him by, right? We got technology now, we got remote workers, we got a renewed focus on diversity because let's face it, the workforce is more diverse. Our clients are more diverse. It's important that we embrace that because that's, that will give us a competitive advantage or at least allow us to compete.

So now I come to you and I go, Renee, I got Joe over here. I don't know if he's going to make it. How do you approach the salty old dog versus the new manager who's just a sponge and they're like, thank God Renee is here.

What do I do? Right? How do you take the, the, the, you know, the veteran and how does coaching a veteran compare to coaching a newbie? Another outstanding question, Dave. Thank you. I have a passion about this.

One of the speaking engagements I do is generational differences in the workforce, how to bridge the gap. This is a critical issue, especially in the age of the great resignation and recruitment. And I deeply believe that different generations have a group of assets that are critically important to one another and to driving the workplace.

So what I would say about the salty dog or crusty old salty dog, Ooh, that's good. I should have done that in there. That's great.

Is first of all is, well, you said he is, he or she willing to learn that's critical. I'm both sides of, of the generational divide actually. And in teaching about generational differences, which is one of my components as well, it's looking at the attributes of the different generations, which are long studied.

And if we can educate one another, the, you know, I'm not going to pick on the millennials. They get so tired of millennial bashing, but let's just say a younger generation and then we have a baby boomer. So the stereotype is the baby boomers driving them crazy because they ask them how to turn their computer on or, you know, things like that.

But if we understand truly how we grew up, what were the forces that affected that and what are the attributes, then we can bridge that divide to try to learn from one another. Now, this gentleman is going to have to, I'm very about results, understand the objectives and key results, the KPIs, where do we need to go and who he's working with. So he, I would educate him on the attributes of the generations.

We would be looking at the objectives and understanding what he needed to do to loosen his hold on values or corporate culture, the way it used to be and, and how can he come along and add value still because he has so much experience to contribute. So it's, it's really an important issue in my mind, bridging this generational gap very much. So I'm so glad you asked that question.

All right. So now let's talk about the remote workforce, right? So much of a high quality leadership is occasionally being elbow to elbow with the, with the people who, with whom you work and demonstrating the core values of, of the organization, sharing your wisdom, your knowledge or experience in a, in a, in a way that is not a very formal setting, rolling up your sleeves and doing the work in with the troops so that they understand that you're willing to get your hands dirty and demonstrate the proper techniques or the proper behavior. We're in an age now where half of the workforce or 60% of the workforce or in some companies, maybe 80% or more of the workforce is remote.

They're not, they're not in an environment where you can be elbow to elbow, maybe ever. How do you demonstrate that intangible that, that, that thing you have to feel in order to bond with the leader of your work group or the leader of your organization? How do you demonstrate that with a remote workforce? Yes. Great, great question.

Leadership is a great responsibility and it's an honor. I'm not just a trainer and consultant of leadership. I have evolved and been a leader through most of my career.

I mean, my journey has been starting director of operations, ending at chief strategy officer. So I've walked that journey and through COVID leadership changed so much. So how do we bond with a remote workforce? We have to think of this hybrid model.

I mean, apply, how did we used to orient a new worker who came in, had him or her meet the team? What were the things that were team building? And we have to remember those and not throw them out the window, but adapt them for the hybrid environment. So if someone you've hired as talent in New Hampshire and your offices in Boston as a leader, I would make sure that there was a series of in-person visits where either they were coming to meet the team, or at least that I was meeting with them to start that integration. And then there's the whole onboarding process and doing it thoroughly.

And then there's working with the technologies, whether it's Microsoft teams, whether it's Zoom, it's not forgetting to incorporate that person. I have a blog, which is my leadership insight of the month. And I reference it here only because I wrote an article about this, about the remote workforce.

And my articles are once a month and again, very research-based, but this is a critical issue, Dave, and clearly you're right on top of things. So succinctly, I would say that we have to, as leaders, focus on the experience of this new team member and remember how we did it pre-COVID when we were all in an office together. And what are the integrations and the use of technology, but also in-person connection that we make sure we're building this team because that will drive results better.

And also it will make the experience of this employee better and retention is critical. I mean, we all know the cost benefit analysis of what it takes to search for and hire and train a new employee. So they're this beautiful golden nugget that we have to integrate even in this new workspace environment.

Thank you. That was a, that was a great answer. Now let's talk about one of the other issues that I hear all the time from the folks that I come into contact with who lead teams.

And that's, Hey, they say to me, Hey, Dave, listen, years ago, we had, when we had a great quarter or we had a great month or we had a great week, I could take everybody out for a drink and you know, it would be, we would just have a great time. I'd throw my credit card on the bar and everybody would have fun. Now, I'm concerned that if we, if we wind up in that environment or if I take people out and things get a little crazy, there may be accusations that fly.

There may be a liability. I may be opening myself up to a whole world of hurt. So I don't even know what to do in this day and age to kind of bond with my team, Dave, Renee, what's the, what's the right answer for that? Because I'll tell you when I came up as, you know, somebody who came up through the ranks of different service oriented businesses and then led teams that were responsible for sales.

Part of the motivation for these people doing well was to have that big celebration at the end of the week or the end of the month. So where do we go now with this one? Everybody's concerned about saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing, or more importantly, just being accused of saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. How does a leader keep that bond, foster those relationships and making, make sure that they never put themselves or the people that work for them in a position to perhaps be accused of something or maybe have a slip of judgment? Yes.

This topic is, is very relevant as you say for today. And going back to leadership, we're in a new era. A lot has happened since those, those days.

Things were acceptable then that aren't should probably shouldn't have been acceptable and aren't acceptable today. And again, leadership, there's, you're a leader for a reason and sometimes it's lonely at the top. I wrote an article called Heavy is the Crown.

So with leadership comes certain boundaries and, and with those boundaries, even in celebration, even if alcohol is involved, you're still a leader in that environment. And we have the luxury today of all of this information from human resources. What is sexual harassment? All the videos of the most nuanced things.

What are the diversity, equity and inclusion areas that we need to be inclusive and aware of? And so I don't think it's that it's black or white, that we can't have fun either or, you know, up or down. It's more that if you create a fun environment, that there are boundaries that you're acting, you're modeling the right behavior, that you're not saying anything that could be perceived incorrectly. And, and really, I think that we know what those things are.

And so it's about the conscious presence of us as leaders in a world that's gone a little crazy. It's a little chaotic out there. And this is where I think leaders can impact the world.

Really. We can still celebrate with those teams. We can still find ways that that feels appropriate, even like taking them on a ropes and rock course, perhaps.

Or even if it is going to a bar, leaders are mentors and models. And so I think we have enough information to understand those boundaries of how to lead and to create safe spaces that are also joyful and engaging and rewarding. Yeah.

Let's, let's talk a little bit about culture now and how some organizations have a culture where they just seem to raise really good leaders. What, what in your experience creates that culture where they just churn out one good leader after another? I come from a background where I right out of college went into a, they used to call it the management manager and training program, the MIT program in Marriott and Marriott was renowned at the time. And there's still, there's still well respected for developing some of the, some of the best leaders in the hospitality industry.

What makes a company a breeding ground for really good leaders? Yeah. First of all, one of my favorite books is Good to Great by Jim Collins. It's very academic, but what I love about it is that he studied top performing companies and top leaders and what makes a high level leader.

And so there's, there's a few things. One is it's having a culture and knowing your culture. Two, it's having training.

Marriott is Disney, Marriott, you know, there are kind of two outliers there that stand out, that invest in training their leaders. Also, it's about having standards and clarity. It's, you know, a real system of these are the results.

These are the processes. These are the measurements. These are the expectations and accountabilities and then a positive reward system for that.

Also identifying in a leader talent and then helping them achieve to that next level. So you're providing opportunities for growth and for achievement. So succinctly it is having a clear culture and values and defining that.

So you know who you're recruiting and they're choosing to come because of that. Secondly, it is having clear standards and systems and expectations. So however you want to identify that there's many out there.

Another wonderful book that I love is traction because it's all about like systems and accountabilities. Like everybody needs to be measured for something, you know, even if it's the number of times the phone rings in the beginning for success. So if those standards and clarity are there in an organization that fosters a clear pathway and clear expectations and results, I mean, that alone could be a podcast, but those would be the, the highlights of what I would say.

Yeah. I really appreciate what you're saying there. My, my son was competitive in the martial arts for years and years and his teacher was, is an amazing man who owns the karate school and also serves as the police training officer for the city of Miami beach.

And his saying was when you're under pressure, you will always default to the level of your training and preparation. So, you know, when it comes to leadership, the training, the preparation that we give people who we then place in a leadership role is critical because who's not under pressure. I mean everybody in every industry is under pressure at some point.

So you want to make sure that you rise to the level of not only effectiveness, but excellence. So you have to be training to that level cause that's where you're going to end up when you're under pressure. All right.

So let's talk now Renee about you and what makes you different. There are, there are a lot of people out there who profess to be, to be leadership coaches. There are a lot of people out there who profess to be experts in leadership.

What makes you different from everybody else who does what you do? Well, I would say there are three buckets. One is that I have been a leader, an embodied leader. So as I mentioned to you before, I have had a career of managing people driving results in my twenties director of operations for an organization really found that I was a strategic thinker and moved into business development and marketing and kind of went up the ladder that way as a strategic thinker eventually ended up as a chief strategy officer.

And in between that, Dave, I took a break because I wanted to consult and I had the honor of being hired by the Hay Group, which has been absorbed into a larger consulting firm. But with the Hay Group, I was trained in performance and leadership development and we worked with clients such as State Farm, Toyota, IBM, with competency model building, behavioral event inter interviewing, many forms of research based and evidence based leadership training, management styles, et cetera. So with that I had that experience and when I went back into being a leader applied that and could see the impact of even my being trained as a consultant to train other leaders.

And secondly I have my master's degree and certifications and thirdly I've been a leader in other areas too. I've been an outer bound instructor. I love outdoor leadership and I was my captain, co captains of my tennis team.

And I say this in that being a leader, whatever the situation is, there are things to learn about it. And when you're being a leader in a wilderness situation, for example, the responsibility is so great, but teamwork is everything. So bucket one is I'm an experienced leader, so I know what my team of trainees and consultees are going through.

Number two, I'm academically trained and number three I've been a leader in other situations as well. Okay. Explain to us the difference, if there is one between working with a leader in a nonprofit organization compared to your, your fortune.

I mean the fortune 100 companies that you worked with leaders within, how is it different? Cause I know you work with both. Is there a difference between sitting down with a leader of a nonprofit versus sitting down with a leader of a business unit and say IBM? Uh, well yes. In that nonprofits and private sector businesses are run differently.

Um, nonprofits tend to be mission driven, uh, which lends to a different type of business structure when you're consulting. But at the end of the day, when I'm training, when a leader comes through my training of my seven core principles or I'm consulting with them, the bottom line is that they're looking for a variety of things. They want to be a better leader.

They want to learn skills to better manage. They want to drive better results. They know they need help leading their teams or they want to promote and those tenants are the same across industries.

It's just culturally, you know, there's that paradigm difference between a nonprofit and a for profit, but they're all trying to drive results towards some end. Okay. And now Renee, who is not a good fit? Who, who would you say you're, you know, you're in an organization, somebody is describing characteristics, qualities, behaviors of certain people and you would say, Oh man, that person is not a good fit.

They shouldn't be a leader. Who's, who's not a good fit as a leader or what type of person should not be put in a leadership role? Well, that is a very compelling question. First and foremost, it would be, do they have the skill or competencies needed for the job? So that, that would be the very first thing.

Secondly, it would depend on the type of job. So for example, sticking with the hotel industry, if they were going to be a concierge or a front desk person and they were really an analytic person who didn't like people at all, that wouldn't be a fit to invest in leadership training. So there has to be role clarity for the person and a role connection with skill.

So I wouldn't, if someone said, I want you to invest in leadership training in that person, I would first want to make sure they could do the job that was required of them. Yeah. What about somebody who's like, you know, narcissistic or egocentric or doesn't have a stitch of empathy or someone who can't relate to the people who are going to be part of their work group? Like I've just seen over the years, I've seen people who were technically proficient.

They had checked all the boxes from the, you know, the competency, uh, the competency measurements. Yet when we asked them, Hey, listen, what do you admire most about the people that work for you? We would get blank stares back or, you know, we would give them scenarios of, uh, employee challenges that they were facing, which required perhaps bending of the rules a little bit or making some exceptions. And they were just very straight and narrow, black and white and couldn't see that, you know, those type of people, that, that emotional element, there are some qualities and you correct me if I'm wrong or correct me if, if, uh, if you think that there's, uh, there's some research that this can be trained out of people.

There are some emotional or psychological characteristics that you're just never going to be able to train into people that are, that are going to make them ineffective as a leader. And you know, I think empathy is one of them. If the person doesn't have a stitch of empathy, how are they ever going to relate to their work group? What do you, what do you think about that? Yeah.

I, having worked with such, um, brilliant organizational psychologists at the Hay group, I, I would say that that's not my area of expertise, like to really psychologically define someone as not capable. I would, um, want more information because one thing that we do see is that leadership can be learned and somebody who may not seem to have empathy. Um, and is that a cultural style or is it a psychological style? But once they learn about competencies, leadership styles, I'm just going to stick with those about emotional intelligence and the evidence that self-awareness and self-management, you know, are our foundational competencies.

I have seen people change. It's like the light goes on in the room for them. So I would, I know where you're going with this question.

Uh, I'm not sure I'd be qualified enough to not, to, to, to make that decision. And by the time people come to me, by the way, you know, they know someone needs leadership training. They would vet that person out.

And my, my point in, in asking that is if you're not qualified, certainly the person in the organization isn't qualified. All they can do is take the, take what they see and explore it more deeply and think about whether or not this is someone that's going to with the investment the organization is prepared to make, be willing to, to do the work to get to the right place. So I'm not a psychologist either, but I can, I can tell you for sure if every conversation I have with someone begins and ends with them as the subject and them as the hero of the story, it's going to be really hard for me to get them to focus on making their employees the hero of the story.

So, you know, that would be somebody that if I were making a choice for him for investment in leadership development, they wouldn't be very high on the list for the investment in leadership development. By the same token, if there was somebody who burst into tears every time an employee walked in the door and told them a story about something that was going on in their life, you know, especially when it was inappropriate, that might be somebody as well that I probably wouldn't make the investment in leadership development. So the point that I want to make sure that our listeners and the people who are watching understand is there is, there are people who are worthy of the investment and then there are other people who probably would not be the priority.

And there is a place for common sense in this. If you have someone who relates to their team and who is, you know, who is who makes a connection at an emotional level with their team, that would be somebody I would think would be worthy of investment versus somebody who is probably well suited for an individual contributor role. Like, you know, somebody who is egocentric and who is motivated by the constant advancement that the achievement of goals can bring them.

And that's all that motivates them. That person may be more motivated for, for an individual contributor role. So as somebody who's running an organization, you have to have this level of perspective and you can't, I, in my opinion, you can't think that it's worthy of your investment.

If somebody, you know, if somebody just is not going to be a fit or it's going to take a long time for them to be a fit. Yes. Well, I see where you're going with that and absolutely as an executive to make a business owner, entrepreneur.

Yeah, yes, right. That's right. Exactly.

Dave to invest in your people. That's a very important decision to make. I mean, budgets are budgets.

Many of the people who come to me self choose to come. It's not always just the organization. And the only thing I would say about those people you're defining is if they're producing for you in some way, and there's this like, let me just try this to see if it is about educating and giving them the tools that maybe they had just have never had, then it might be worth a try because people can change.

But again, an owner or a business owner and entrepreneurs has to make that decision. But I have seen people change. Knowledge is power and business owners have to make the decision on who they invest in.

All right, Renee, I want you to take a minute and think of three things you want folks to take away from our time together. Three things people should take away from what we've covered today. While you're doing that, I'm going to remind folks that we are brought to you by my revenue roadmap guide.

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We're talking to leadership expert Renee Scudder. You can reach out to her at 617-249-4829, 617-249-4829. Or you can find her at our website, inspireleadershiptraining.com, inspireleadershiptraining.com. All those words together.

Her email address, as well as her website is down in the show notes. I got her bio down there as well. You can find out everything you need to know about Renee and the fantastic service she offers.

Okay, Renee, what are the three things you want the folks at home to take away or at work, wherever they are, in their car? What are the three things you want them to take away from our time together today? Okay, Dave. Well, I would say number one is that leadership can be learned and to remember that there are techniques and plenty of research to teach good leadership skills. And number two, I would suggest that we all as leaders stay informed that the landscape is constantly changing and there's wonderful information out there.

So stay informed. And I would say the third thing is to know your value as a leader, the impact you make every day on the people that you lead, on the clients that we serve. And that leadership is just such an awesome responsibility and we can really make a positive difference in the world with it.

Thank you, Dave. All right. Those three tips are great.

Thank you, Renee. Folks, you can reach out to Renee. Once again, you can find her at inspireleadershiptraining.com, inspireleadershiptraining.com, or you can call her at 617-249-4829.

Her email address is down in the show notes. Renee, thank you so much for joining us today. It was an absolute pleasure having you on.

Dave, thank you for the opportunity. Wonderful. Thank you.

Alrighty folks, that'll do it for another episode of the Inside VS Show. My name is Dave Lorenzo. We're back here again tomorrow.

Remember if you'll like what you heard, give us a hey now down in the comments. I read every single comment on YouTube, every single comment on the podcast sites, even if you just write, hey now Dave, hey now Renee down in the comments. We appreciate it.

We will see you back here again tomorrow with another edition of our show. Until then, here's hoping you make a great living and live a great life.