[Speaker 2] (1:00:00 - 1:00:31)
What do you say when you're in a jam? If you want the answer to that question and so much more, we've got it for you today on this edition of the Inside BS Show. Hey now, I'm Dave Lorenzo, and I'm the Godfather of Growth, and today we have a returning champion.

That's right, we've got only the second time in Inside BS History, we've invited somebody back because he's so nice you had to meet him twice. Ladies and gentlemen, join me in welcoming Dave Oates to the Inside BS Show. Hey Dave, great to have you with us.

[Speaker 1] (1:00:31 - 1:00:42)
It's great, I did not realize that I am now in lone company of being a returning guest, which I appreciate the accolades. It may mean that nobody understood what I said the first time, and so we're going to try it a second time.

[Speaker 2] (1:00:43 - 1:01:21)
No, we had you here during COVID and everything was a crisis, so now we're having you back during tariffs, and guess what? Everything is a crisis once again. So Dave, look, you're an expert.

In my opinion, you're an expert in all communications, but your company is designed to help businesses that are between five and a hundred million in annual revenue that are dealing with something that they've probably not dealt with before. So tell us, before we even get into anything specific, how do you define a communications crisis?

[Speaker 1] (1:01:21 - 1:03:04)
Yeah, I appreciate that question. It's really anything that disrupts operations. So it could be something as catastrophic as all of a sudden your cost of goods sold jumped up 145% from the time you ordered it overseas to the time it reaches the shore, right?

So those big macroeconomic issues that are now just sucking the airwaves dry. But it could also be something as simple as a customer who, for whatever reason, had their nose out of joint and now doesn't understand why their product or service didn't meet their expectations, who's now taken to Yelp or Google or Facebook or Instagram or X or, you know, pick your favorite social media platform, and it's causing other people to ask you questions. That in and of itself is a crisis because not only is your reputation on the line, but you are now being taken away from your core duties, wherever that duties are, to answer the mail on that one.

And I guarantee you, if there's one person who's got that kind of complaint, there's going to be 10 just based on their following, because everybody thinks that these wonderful little devices that we all carry around is now a broadcaster, right? So that really should be the idea that I think any organization of any size should have, is that it's no longer some big conflagration that is going to require a press conference in front of your building or virtual setting, you know, if you're an online commerce only type of operation. It really is anything that's going to disrupt operations, because that's where crises happen and that's where market shares are lost and never come back if you don't take action soon to make sure that people understand from where you're coming.

[Speaker 2] (1:03:04 - 1:03:27)
So Dave, let's, before we get into anything else, let's help people understand why I trust you so much on these topics. Give folks your background. You've been doing this for a long time and you're really good at it.

How did you get started in crisis communications? Where did you get your chops in learning how to handle these things?

[Speaker 1] (1:03:28 - 1:07:04)
I appreciate that. Yeah, in the most backwards way possible. So to give you that one, so I was a Navy officer.

I was a surface warfare officer, to be specific, on a guided missile frigate. So combat engineering roles and forward deployed operations also in various other capacities. But like what happens a lot in smaller units within the Navy, you as a junior officer get assigned additional duties.

So I was the anti-submarine warfare officer at the time and all of a sudden I became the part-time additional public affairs officer duties. And this is 30 odd years ago. And I went, awesome.

What's that? No idea. And so I found through what really is the art of networking that even nowadays that we take for granted is I found Navy journalists, Navy public affairs officers within the San Diego waterfront for where my ship was based.

And I started learning on the job. And you know, Dave, remember those times where you've had sort of the aha moment where all of a sudden things clicked and you're like, wow, I really like this. In my off-duty hours and weekends and whatnot, I would be following around the people who did this type of job to try to learn it for myself to be good for my ship.

But once I started realizing what their day-to-day operation entailed of telling the Navy story to not only external audiences like the press, but also in community events, circles of influence, internal audiences, sailors and Marines, so that they knew how important their job was, how much they were valued. I fell in love with it. And so found out then afterwards that there was a process by which I could apply for a transfer to be a full-time Navy public affairs officers.

And perseverance was the watchword. I did three times. Third time was the charm.

Finally got selected. Probably just so that the selecting body would just say, stop sending us, stop sending us requests. Just go do the job and, and got a chance to be that way.

And the Navy is so good about sending you to forward deployed operations. So we basically, the deep end of the pool with some great mentors. So I learned promotional, but also crisis at an early age.

For instance, I was on an aircraft carrier for two years as the public affairs officer. I had an outstanding staff. We ran four channels of television.

We had an FM radio station. We had a daily newspaper. We did all of the promotional community relations.

But to the point of the topic, there were also crises from aircraft mishaps and sailors and Marines doing things they weren't supposed to and just the hot war environment. So I learned very quickly the art of communicating, communicating effectively, communicating as transparent and authentic as you can be ready for the follow-on questions, not only to internal audiences, but audiences all over the world. I wasn't even 30.

And then after I left the Navy service, I went into tech PR, software, semiconductor, wireless for about six years in various capacities, including the marketing director for a software company. So I got the experience, mass layoffs when the company didn't get a following round of financing or products got delayed or somebody didn't do what they were supposed to do in those capacities and built my credentials in the corporate world. So when I hung on my own shingle to make a longer story short, I was the guy that a lot of PR people were calling on to deal with crisis.

And then again, because now everybody's a broadcaster with their phones, I realized that there was an opportunity to be of service full-time in this capacity. So I changed that service model from being sort of a communications service person in general to one that focused solely on crisis. That happened almost about a little over eight years ago now.

I wish I had done it 20 years ago because I really love helping organizations communicate their way through bad situations.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:04 - 1:07:18)
Has the crisis communications model become more difficult for you with social media, or is it easier because you can counter-program a message quickly?

[Speaker 1] (1:07:18 - 1:09:03)
I think you nailed it, the latter part there. It's no less simple. It's still complicated as it always was.

But I tell organizations this, the very same platforms that allow somebody to discredit you gives you the opportunity to set the narrative straight, but you got to do it the right way. You can't just scream and holler at somebody and refute them in a very angry and almost bitter tone like I see a lot of organizations do. I don't care what the crisis is.

I don't care if the organization, for-profit, nonprofit, government, name the sector, hospitality, tech, retail, biotech, government, whatever the case may be, you need to express empathy and action. I'll say it again, empathy and action. By empathy, I don't mean you have to admit culpability.

You don't have to admit wrongdoing if there's none to be made, but you do have to recognize that people are upset because they feel voiceless and disenfranchised, maybe because they've got something wrong, maybe because they heard something that's just total BS. But you have to recognize and tell them, hey, I hear you. I know that.

Let's get the record straight. Or if you've screwed up, admit it, own it, and fix it right away. Show that action afterwards with empathy because that diffuses the tension.

Otherwise, what should happen is if you don't diffuse attention, now you're just basically engaging in cable news diatribe, right? So they're screaming, you scream, and it just keeps elevating, and you're going to lose, again, that market share. You're going to disrupt operations even further.

Your bottom line is going to be impacted from that one. And ultimately, my job is to help organizations get back to normal operations as quickly as they can and start the repair process if there's one need to be and not extend this angry environment in which they find themselves any longer than has to be.

[Speaker 2] (1:09:04 - 1:10:09)
Yeah, that's great. I appreciate that. I wasn't planning on talking about this, but you actually mentioned something that I know is going to be a question in the mind of the people who are listening and watching.

So let's say I've got a successful local business doing 5, 7 million in annual revenue, and we're not on all social media outlets. Maybe we're not on TikTok, and we don't post YouTube videos. We just do some Facebook stuff or whatever.

And we're doing great, but we screw something up, and somebody makes a TikTok video about us. Do we now need to create a TikTok account to respond on TikTok? Should we be responding where the issue surfaces?

So if it's a Yelp review, we need to go on Yelp to apologize or to address it. If it's on Instagram, do we need to go on Instagram to address it? What's the answer?

Do we need to be where the issue was? Man, I'm going to give you a lawyer's answer.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:09 - 1:13:01)
It depends. So here's why it depends. It depends on what type of business you're in and where your customers, where your partners, where your investors are.

So let's say I'm a law firm, and I'm a law firm that deals in business-to-business, and I'm high-end corporate world. And somebody posts a TikTok video just saying something that's completely outrageous and wrong. Is your audience really going to be watching that TikTok video?

And if they are, are they going to take it seriously? Now, that doesn't mean you shouldn't be watching for that and seeing how that's developed, seeing what kind of traction it's getting. And if necessary, you probably are going to need to give a heads up to your employees, to your partners, to your clients and others that, hey, here's what's going on here.

I want to set the record straight with you here. So you don't have to necessarily respond on that area, right? But you do need to talk to your audiences.

And I mentioned employees. Your employees are always the first one you have to talk to, no matter the crisis, because you need to empower them to be able to have those conversations with the customers, with your business partners, with other people, because they're your best and most effective marketing source for any circumstances. Don't forget your employees.

But you don't necessarily have to get on TikTok if that's not where your audiences are. Now, that said, I think every organization, no matter the industry and no matter the situation, should have a decent internet presence, like a LinkedIn company page, and actively blogging and putting content on that. Your website should not be static.

You should have different types of content, expert source in nature, things that you know to be true, showcase your talent, your credibility in those regards, and develop a following to do so. I get a lot of organizations will tell me, yeah, but I'm not on any social media. We don't do it because we don't get any clients from that.

Granted, no worries on that. But your reputation will be won and lost online, because I guarantee if you are one that just gets business through word of mouth and somebody makes a referral by email, great. First thing that person to whom your friend referred will do is to Google you.

And I guarantee all this other stuff that's online will pop up first, because you haven't maintained a robust internet presence. So it will at best just confuse them and slow down the sales process. But worst case, that person who was referred to you won't even call you, won't even set up a meeting, because they've taken a look at this and they've made a determination about your credibility, and you haven't said word one, and you don't even know how much money is left off the table from that.

That in and of itself is a crisis, if only because your sales operations are disrupted as a result.

[Speaker 2] (1:13:01 - 1:15:04)
Yeah, that's a great point. And we're seeing more and more people in sports and celebrities creating their own channels where they communicate on a regular basis. And when something happens, they can address it in their own way in the right time for them.

I'll give you a great example. So we're recording this in the beginning of May, and as of today, the Knicks are still in the playoffs. And so Jalen Brunson and one of his teammates have a great podcast called The Roommate Show.

They went to Villanova together. And their podcast is like everybody in New York who's a basketball fan listens to their podcast. It's also on YouTube.

I mean, now they have hefty sponsors. And there was an incident with one of the fans during the playoffs, like this guy was sitting next to the Knicks bench on the road, and he got tickets at home to sit next to the Knicks bench. And he was abusing Brunson.

And Brunson was very good at not letting it get to him during the game. And the media had written about it, and they usually record one episode a week. They didn't record an episode at all during the first round of the playoffs because they were focused on winning the playoffs.

But after the series ended, they did about 15 minutes on the series itself. And then for 10 minutes, Josh Hart, who's Brunson's college roommate who's now on the Knicks with him, asked Jalen to talk about the fan. And Brunson just told his side of the story and really kind of cleared it up.

Like this guy was on social media, on X posting about Brunson and tormenting him during the games. Brunson just waited and responded on his own form of media. And immediately, the story was over because these guys had their own podcast.

And he responded in his own way. It's brilliant, right?

[Speaker 1] (1:15:04 - 1:15:44)
I mean, whether Jaden has got any sort of—even if he didn't get dollar one from the YouTube channel and his YouTube presence, it still is an understanding that you've created your own platform by which you can tell a narrative. It's the same thing for corporate America. It's the same for any other organization, right?

Don't abdicate that real estate to somebody else who will fill in the void and describe you in ways that may not be true or authentic or relevant, right? So they get an opportunity to do so, right? The Kelsey brothers are a prime example of that.

[Speaker 2] (1:15:44 - 1:15:45)
Oh, fantastic example.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:45 - 1:17:26)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were doing that there.

And when Jason Kelsey—I mean, we talk about Travis Kelsey and how he got Taylor Swift to be his girlfriend through the podcast. But Jason Kelsey had a platform that when a fan came up and basically broke the cardinal rule, which is you can talk about me all you want, but the moment you disparage my brother, the gloves come off, right? But he talked about how he lost his head in that respect and owned up to it on his podcast, right?

Brilliant way to do so. I know he also did that on ESPN and the other things. But the fact that he was able to do it on his own podcast to his audience and endear himself—I mean, I don't think he lost any fans as a result of that incident because he had a way to express himself and say the narrative.

And organizations in this day and age, where fewer and fewer people are getting information solely, if at all, from a credible news outlet, you're going to have to play the same game as others, which is be your own broadcaster, be your own voice. So Dave, you brought up in the beginning, how is it easier? How is it harder in crisis communication?

I would say, for me, it's the same because of the outlets for that. But for organizations, it is going to require them to defend their brand, to defend their reputation through proactive measures, even in channels for which they won't generate one lead to do so, because other people can easily do so. And the next thing you know, it gets ranked on the first page of Google, and you will lose business without even knowing.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:26 - 1:18:53)
All right. Let's talk a little bit about an incident that I just had to communicate with one of my clients on earlier this week. So I have a client who's a lawyer in New York City, and she represents contractors.

And she's renegotiating contracts like crazy now, contracts that are not done on a time and materials basis, but contracts that have caps on what the total dollar amount they're going to charge the developers are going to be for huge construction projects. These contractors are going back to the developers now because of the place we are with the national economy, with potential for tariffs, the developers are saying, listen, we agreed to this contract, and the contractors are saying, well, I don't know what steel is going to cost in, you know, three months or six months or even a year. So we need to really look at before I get started, we need to revisit this contract.

Now, how do people who are just regular plain old business people, retailers, you know, I got a 10 million dollar business, and I'm not going to be able to put that stuff on a shelf for the holidays or I'm going to have a limited amount of the hottest new toy for the holidays. How do I communicate to my customers, the prices are going up, and I might not have enough, and it's not my fault. Like, what do I do?

[Speaker 1] (1:18:53 - 1:21:48)
I think you should follow at least what was an idea, and I'll stress that it was just an idea, that Amazon at least seemed to have floated, if only in internal discussions, which was to, in very transparent terms, talk about the tariff prices on the products. Now, apparently that didn't go anywhere internally, but it spooked the hell out of the current presidential administration for reasons that I'm not quite certain, and that's probably for another show at another time. But transparency is the watchword here, right?

The reasons that are outside your control doesn't still abdicate the responsibility and the accountability to explain to customers what's going on. And look, especially in a scenario like you just talked about, right, because it's, I mean, there are goods coming on shore right now that are 145% more expensive for the retailer, right, than it was two weeks ago, as we're recording this broadcast. And I think you should explain that.

I'll give you an example, too. There was a situation here in San Diego where minimum wage went up, and it went up pretty rapidly for a year period, and it was really putting strain on restaurants. And restaurants started to say, as you walked in the door with signage, there will be a 3% surcharge on your bill to accommodate the employee price increases.

What they were trying to do is to differentiate, here is the cost of a meal, and here's the cost that's a result of a policy. Now, they weren't arguing whether the policy was good or bad. They just said, here's what we're doing to recoup the cost.

And I thought that was actually really smart, because otherwise what happens is you've got to bake it into the price, and now the customer gets the false impression that you're just trying to bilk them for all it's worth. Like, how come all of a sudden my burger went from $13 to $20? This is asinine.

Well, yeah, we didn't have a choice. Here's why. And I think the same thing should apply in this day and age, that when your costs go up rapidly, whether it's because of a tariff policy or something else, you need to express that completely.

Are you going to lose business as a result of that? Yeah, you bet. There's inelasticity in every product.

At some point, it's too expensive for people to be willing to buy, right? So that's just how it's going to be. But you're not going to get as many as you would, because you're at least being transparent that people say, okay, I get it.

You're not bilking me. This is just the cost of now doing business, at least today. And so I want this product.

I'm willing to pay it. At least you'll get a couple of those to stick around.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:48 - 1:22:04)
Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Dave. I want to give you a hypothetical and have you help me with how to message this, okay?

Of course, it's ripped from the headlines based on a true story, but all the names and situations have been changed. Law and order.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:04 - 1:22:04)
Yeah, exactly.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:05 - 1:22:56)
So there's a church, and the church is in multiple cities, and one of the church leaders in another city does something inappropriate. Now that ripples through, and an email goes out, and the email is poorly worded, and nobody knows what the hell anybody's talking about, but they know somebody did something somewhere, right? So now I'm a church leader in my parish here in Podunk, Miami, Florida, and I got to communicate to my congregation what that email meant, but I'm not allowed to say who did what to whom.

So how do I get the message out that you don't have to worry. Everything is still good with us. This happened over there, and it was somebody over there that did something wrong, but I can't tell you what they did.

How do I deal with that?

[Speaker 1] (1:22:57 - 1:23:04)
Oh my God. Well, you and I, not to get into ... You and I belong to a networking group that had that exact scenario.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:04 - 1:23:07)
I know what you're talking about. This is a church, Dave. We're talking about a church.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:07 - 1:23:13)
Exactly, right. It's a church. It's a national chain.

It is a membership.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:13 - 1:23:19)
Somebody over there did something, and now I'm getting the brunt of it. How do I handle that?

[Speaker 1] (1:23:20 - 1:23:52)
And you can't. And look, even in the best scenarios, you won't more often than not be able to talk about who, what, where, when, right? Because there's employee privacy laws.

There's investigations. There's a bunch of other things that you just can't do. So this happens so often from that one.

And I think to your degree, you said, I'll tell you what I said, right? Because we both run groups within this membership organization. I said, you got an email, right?

And I had so many people in this email come up to me saying, is it me? Because the email was ...

[Speaker 2] (1:23:52 - 1:23:57)
That's why I had to have a meeting to address it, because everybody thought it was them.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:58 - 1:26:26)
And I said, right, because that's the way the email looked. It looked like, it is any moment now, there will be a knock on your door, and there'll be an investigator over here with a target on your back. And I said, okay, you can't go into the details on this.

But here's what I can tell you. And I said it this way. It involves somebody out of market.

It has not involved anybody else in this room. There is a current investigation underway. It is under seal to protect not so much the person accused, although they also have rights, but the victims involved.

And we will respect that process. Once I have more information, I'll let you know. But there's also another thing with that.

Let's just call it out, right, without naming names. The other issue with that whole scenario, and this happens far more often than not, is there was six weeks delay between the moment that the event occurred and was known to by senior leadership to the point that there was any sort of communication. Now, then, as you said, the communication was so broad and so misunderstood that it actually caused more harm than no good.

So what do you do in a situation like that? Something happens to this area there. Somebody gets something out right away.

You be as candid and forthright as you can be. You be as specific as you can without naming names. So the way I would have written that email is, we have a person in a leadership position in this market who has some serious allegations.

We are investigating this matter. We will keep it private to protect everyone involved with that. But please know that we are upholding the high standards that we hold ourselves to in this organization, and we'll give you more information as we know it.

Are people going to know who it is? Yeah, same as a church. Everybody knows everybody, especially in a membership organization like a church, like a business association.

But you at least held the line in protecting somebody's privacy and giving people the transparency that they need in the time frame that they need. Timing is so much of the essence, because otherwise, I know you knew it. In this particular case, I was getting calls left and right from members going, what's going on?

What's going on? Even before that email. And that's just a classic case of what not to do.

And I think the organization to which we're both proud members of learned a valuable, valuable, and painful lesson as a result of that one. And by the way, they're not alone.

[Speaker 2] (1:26:26 - 1:27:09)
No, it happens. It happens a lot of places. And the one thing that leaders always have to keep in mind, and when I ran a big organization, I knew this full well, and I would try and get out in front of everything as quickly as I could, is that the grapevine is more powerful than any corporate communications network that you have.

So even if you came out in real time and discussed this, there's something else going below the surface that you're not aware of. So the only thing you can do is try to keep up. When you think you're getting ahead of something, you're never really going to get ahead of anything in a big organization.

[Speaker 1] (1:27:09 - 1:28:27)
That's a really good point, Dave. And so I'm going to go back because I've now revised the answer to the first question that you had in there, which is, is it easier or is it harder to do what you do today because of just the way in which we communicate and the frequency by which and the power that people have to be a broadcaster and say whatever they want whenever they want? And the answer is, in this case, speed is probably more of the essence now than it's ever been.

And that's probably the big differentiator. You don't have until the end of the day when a newspaper reporter is on deadline to get a statement or to get something out there. You don't have until the next day to respond.

You might have an hour. And that's what I always tell folks is you got an hour because if you don't, somebody with a video on their camera is going to parade around and capture whatever they did, even if it's their own voice, talking about them. And if you're not careful, that kind of content goes viral very quickly and becomes the de facto truth because you are conspicuously absent in the conversation.

And your silence gives the misperception that you either don't care or that there's some truth to it. And either way, it's not a good look.

[Speaker 2] (1:28:27 - 1:29:30)
The most important job you have as a leader is to communicate with the people you're leading. So in the hypothetical church example that I gave you, if the leader of the church had said, I can't give talking points to the people in each parish because I have to check with our lawyers, the narrative is being defined while you're checking with the lawyers. So you as a leader have to make a judgment call and you have to go out with some sort of message using your best judgment because that's what the people who own the organization have invested in you.

They trust your judgment for situations like this. If you truly don't know, I mean, think about the BP oil spill. That was a disaster for a week and a half because that knucklehead, oh, nothing to see here.

You know, like, oh my God, are you kidding me? They got cameras showing the well spewing oil. Like, are you out of your mind?

[Speaker 1] (1:29:32 - 1:31:27)
So half of the times I get involved in a client matter to your point is through an attorney. Attorneys call me asking me for help. And there should be, and it's a healthy debate of where the line is drawn between saying things as transparent and authentic way as you can and limiting the legal liability somebody has for potential litigation down the road.

And my answer is, I get that you want to reduce unnecessary liability risk, but I got a news flash for you. The lawsuits are coming. Let's be clear about it.

Lawsuits are coming regardless. And second to that is you could protect yourself to the point that you will run your business right in the ground. BP oil is the prime example of that.

They lost significant market share that had to be rebuilt for years afterwards. And I theorize the one big reason why they are still in business in the way that they are is because the infrastructure required or energy harvesting for lack of a better term is so great that nobody else could be able to pick that up, you know, in short order. But man, that was a, that was an ugly, costly effect for them, not just for corporate headquarters, you know, back in the UK, but for anybody who had a BP oil franchise service station, Arco is the same thing there.

Can you imagine those poor owners who were just trying to make a buck on Mart? And by the way, anybody doesn't know this, gas, the profit that the local gas station owner is making off of us filling a tank is so raged then the money that trickles down is, is so ridiculous on that one. And those, those were the owners that took it hardest out of all.

[Speaker 2] (1:31:27 - 1:31:40)
It reminds me of the people getting upset with the people with supermarkets for not having eggs or back when we had mask mandates yelling at the poor clerks in the supermarket, like these people, like they're not getting paid enough.

[Speaker 1] (1:31:41 - 1:33:21)
They're really not getting paid enough for you to be abusing them like that. Yeah. And that's the other thing too, is that if we don't, if you don't have, and I'll give you another example, since you brought that up, can you imagine, remember the United Airlines, since you're from, you know, since you've spent time in Chicago, remember the United Airlines flight where the guy got dragged off of the plane and everybody had their cameras out there because he wasn't refusing to give up his seat because they oversold it. And United Airlines put out a press release that night and didn't talk to anybody else.

They didn't talk to employees. They didn't talk to customers. They didn't talk to anybody.

And they hid behind the legal wall, right? Well, this was a law enforcement deal because the federal marshals were the ones who dragged that guy off the plane. And so they, they washed their hands of that completely.

Can you imagine having been a United Airlines ticket counter at O'Hare the next day, how much that person's day was ruined because nobody talked to them. Nobody gave them talking points. Nobody empowered them to be able to discuss it.

And all they knew all day long is, I can't imagine walking in, somebody's checking the bags going, you're going to kick me off this plane too? That would be awful. And it can be mitigated by companies who recognize the power of communicating with empathy and action.

Again, two cardinal rules, right? Any crisis communication effort, empathy and action, to be able to take your employees and make them an asset and show that you value them just as much as you value the customers. None of whom felt like they were appreciated on any level from that United Airlines flight.

And that's not an isolated incident. We see this all the time.

[Speaker 2] (1:33:22 - 1:33:34)
So you said empathy and action. What else are the go-tos? What else should everybody do in a crisis?

What's the minimum standard for crisis communication?

[Speaker 1] (1:33:34 - 1:35:32)
Yeah. So empathy and action being one of them, right? But the second is don't be the last person to know somebody's talking about you online.

This goes back to the power of an internet presence. And even if you don't have a robust one or you don't think you need one, everyone, organizations and executives should set up Google Alerts on themselves. And it's free, alerts.google.com.

You can put in, if you've got a Gmail account or something similar to that, you can put keywords into parentheses. So your company's name, your name, and it can, within two hours of somebody posting something on a social media outlet, on YouTube, on a blog, or an article comes out there, you're going to get alerted that it's out there. So that if somebody starts to talk about you or your entity in negative tones, you can actually address those before that piece of content goes viral, before it just becomes this catastrophic crisis and spend far less time, disrupt far less operations.

So the second is don't be the last person to know that somebody's talking about you. And third is be ready for scenarios that could occur or may occur, likely to occur, just because every business operations, from your service business to your heavy industrial manufacturing businesses, have inherent risks, right? Ransomware attacks, employee misconduct, CEOs doing something wrong, somebody gets popped for a DUI that's in a highly visible position within your entity, any of those kinds of situations, let alone all your service, product distribution, sales, whatever.

You should have scenarios that you plan for and train for as part of your risk management strategies. I know everybody says, yeah, I'll get to it, but it's not a crisis now. I got these 10 fires.

I get it. But the time to know what to say and be ready for the gotcha questions to happen afterwards is not when it's happening for obvious reasons. Because again, you may have only an hour.

You want to be prepared for that. Those are the three things that I think every organization should consider.

[Speaker 2] (1:35:32 - 1:36:51)
So the point that you made there is one that I learned when I was a hotel manager. So when you're a hotel manager, if you work for a good hotel company, you go through media training because if it can happen in a city, it happens in a hotel. People die.

People get robbed. You can have the best run hotel in the world. Somebody's going to die there.

Eventually you get enough people coming to the hotel, somebody's going to die there. You get enough people coming to the hotel, eventually somebody's going to get robbed there. Eventually there's going to be somebody busted for prostitution there.

Eventually there's going to be a fight in your lobby. Somebody's going to get thrown through a window or something's going to happen and the cops are going to be called and somebody's going to be monitoring that and you're going to be asked a question about it and you don't have time at two o'clock in the morning to call corporate because there's some reporter who didn't have a story, was on deadline, was at the bar up the street and is going to come running in with a pad and ask you for a quote.

It happens all the time. So as a hotel manager, you get, they give you a media training even if it's just the bare bones. So you learn what you should say, what you shouldn't say and how to bridge to a message that will get you through that moment.

Dave, talk about how important it is to give a non-answer answer and be able to bridge to talking points just to get you through when somebody's looking for a quote until you have an actual answer.

[Speaker 1] (1:36:51 - 1:38:17)
You bring up a real good scenario. I'll add to that scenario. I'm less concerned about a reporter calling on deadline at two o'clock than I am about the other patrons that are in the lobby or at the bar, grabbing their phones and scanning whatever it is I'm posting on there because everybody else will pick that up.

And the next thing you know, that's the narrative for that. So look, if you don't know all the details, then you say we're investing, we're uncovering all the details. We're obviously shocked and sad.

Law enforcement's being called in and we are fully cooperating with that. In the meantime, here's what we're doing to keep everybody else safe. And this is whether it's or whether you're just in a retail establishment like a shopping mall, you've got to be telling them what you're doing with empathy and action.

Shocked and sad. And here's what we know. Here's what we're doing.

And here's what we're doing to try to find out the more information. Here's who we're cooperating with. And be ready at least for those statements.

I don't even call it a non-answer answer to your point, Dave. What I call it is staying within what you know, going with the facts as you know it. The thing that also bites organizations is when they get speculative.

When it's something like, let's take the example of a fight that happens in a hotel lobby, right? We'll just go with this narrative. And it happens to be not just with two, you know, let's just say two hotel guests who happen to know each other.

[Speaker 2] (1:38:17 - 1:38:17)
Somebody's famous.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:17 - 1:38:32)
It happens to be, right? Is somebody famous? Or it happens to be because a hotel guest took a swing at a bellhop and that bellhop decided to return through a couple of punches.

[Speaker 2] (1:38:32 - 1:38:33)
That never happens.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:33 - 1:39:22)
Somebody on the floor, right? I'm not advocating for that, but somebody taking a swing at me at a hotel lobby and probably returning, right? But the point is that that's all going to get caught on camera.

So then you have to talk about, people are going to be like, what happened? Well, oh, well, the patrons started it beforehand. If you don't know, if you're not definitively sure on those facts, then you don't want to say anything.

You just want to keep it high level for that one there and offer more information. Now that doesn't mean that eyewitnesses aren't going to talk to Instagram followers, influencers, journalists, news, or fine, but express with that empathy and action about what you know, what you're doing about it, and how you're going to find out more information as soon as you can. And then the key is to follow up so that people know that you're serious about that.

[Speaker 2] (1:39:22 - 1:40:04)
I mean, it's fine to say, listen, this is not, we're really sorry this happened. We're gathering all of the footage, all the information now, and we're going to review it, and I'll let you know as soon as I know more. I mean, that's all you can do at that point.

You know, I think that we end up, people end up getting in trouble when, and this, I don't know how to counsel people out of this. Tell me what you tell people. People try to be more important than the issue, or they try to seem important, and they pretend they have information that they don't necessarily have.

[Speaker 1] (1:40:05 - 1:41:49)
Well, you know, I appreciate you bringing that up because I've seen that before. I've also seen just the opposite, where they try to be the chameleon who is the color of the wall so no one sees them, right? So there's plausible deniability on that.

But I don't see sort of that middle ground, right, which is a leader comes in saying this is what we're doing about that, this is how we're responding. It's easy though to speculate, right? Particularly if you know the parties involved.

Let's just use that hotel bar fight scenario again, right? So we've got, we have a scenario where people will say, well, did the bartender serve this person more than they should have, right? Was he inebriated?

Is that the liability of the hotel to do that there? Because there are laws against serving people that you know are intoxicated and so forth and so on there. Hey, an investigation is going to find out about that.

Even if you were in the space and you saw that somebody was visibly intoxicated, was that person literally just became that? There's so many other questions that have to come in through an investigation. You don't want to speculate on even the stuff that you may have seen because it may even be out of context.

When a crisis happens, especially something that has sort of violent tendencies for that, I will tell you firsthand, you can't necessarily trust your eyesights and your perceptions on that because unless you're a trained observer in those types of situations like a law enforcement official, you just, you don't know. And so I just, people give it some space, right? And that's probably to your point.

People have a hard time giving space to questions that are asked. They want to answer the questions, but unintentionally, in many cases, just dig a deeper hole because it's speculation.

[Speaker 2] (1:41:49 - 1:42:52)
All right. So one question before we move on to how you grow your business, because I'm a big fan of what you're doing to grow your business. Before we move on to that, I want to also caution people because we've seen a lot of, and you know, I don't want to get political, but we've seen a lot of people in politics who will say things that are not necessarily true, or they stretch the truth.

And I come across business leaders who will say all the time, well, you know, it works for this guy. He never apologizes. And so we're never going to apologize because, you know, we want to follow that model because it's worked for them.

And I will tell you, I can count on one hand, the number of times when not telling the truth has worked for people, and it never works over the longterm, in my opinion, Dave. So how do you counsel people when they see people on TV who may not be telling the truth, who seem to get away with not telling the truth? You only get away with it for so long.

What's your, what are your thoughts on that?

[Speaker 1] (1:42:52 - 1:44:58)
The bigger they are, the harder they fall, right? I mean, that's just, that's, that's the sort of operating tone, whether it's a politician, whether it's a celebrity, right, or somebody like that, who tries to shift the narrative. I think the term I heard one time is alternative facts, which is another way to just say lie or bullshit.

That's, that's just, that ultimately will get, will get found out and people will not trust you, right? And, and, and look, let's, let's take it in the political realm, and we don't have to use any names because it's, it's not germane to one political party or one particular person. The politics right now is an ugly business from, from any sort of MBA metric, because they are not looking to grow their base.

Political parties want to continue to have a base that will, that will be active and, and participate. But at the same token, they are trying to get the opposition space to sit out elections, so they don't have to spend more money. If you took that same mentality in the corporate world, you would be out of business.

You can only succeed by growing your business, unless you're an independent practitioner and a lifestyle. If you have an organization and you were looking at, you have to continue growing. Ray Kroc said it right, right?

If you're green, you're growing. If you're ripening, you're starting to rot. You have to continue that, that path.

So the only way to do so is to endear yourself to customers, to employees, to partners who feel like you have their best interests at heart, who feel like you are authentic and that you are transparent and that your value system align with theirs. And if they feel like you're just feeding them a line so you can get the upper hand from that one, it may work in the short term. You may fool some, you know, some of the time, as you said, you can't fool all the people all the time, and that ultimately will be your demise.

And we've seen it more often than not, colossal, colossal failures by individuals and organizations over what should have been something that was really easy to do, and that is just to be truthful and authentic.

[Speaker 2] (1:44:58 - 1:46:14)
Yeah, no, I appreciate that. All right, so I want to shift gears and talk about what you do, because I think you do a great job at putting information out there that helps people understand who you are as a person and what you do in your business. So you target, no, it's the truth.

You target the same people, basically, that Nicola and I in our business target. Business owners from five million in annual revenue up to a hundred million or so in annual revenue. And you spend a lot of your time on social media demonstrating what you do, but you also spend a lot of time sharing stuff that's beneficial for the community at large.

Talk a little bit about how you leverage social media and what your process is like before you decide to post something, because, you know, let's face it, you and I, we're not kids. We're not sitting there taking selfies with our food at, you know, the local restaurant. We give a lot of thought to before we do stuff, and maybe it takes us a couple of takes to get it right.

So what is your strategy and what thought do you give before you put out a message, and then what's your messaging look like?

[Speaker 1] (1:46:14 - 1:48:50)
Oh, I appreciate that. So I guess the operative theme to any of my postings is approachability, right? I just want to be the guy that somebody can call with something that is scaring the absolute crap out of them and know that at least they've got my ear.

So there's generally things that I will tend to make public. One is any thoughts, expertise, they're usually one-minute reels that I have, like we just talked about, ripped from the headlines of an organization or an entity that has done something or finds themselves embroiled in some matter affecting their reputation, and I'll give my take on it. Sometimes it's good takes, like, boy, they really handled this well.

This was textbook. Here's how they went about it. Here's how they communicated.

Here are the follow-ups. This was great, and some of it is not good. This is what they didn't do.

This is why they didn't, and you can tell why they didn't do it, and it's only going to make matters worse for them, and I talk through that. My intention there is to give organizations and executives an idea of the things that they should do and don't on a regular basis, regardless if they call me or not. None of those reels talk about, hey, call me if you have this situation.

I'm just trying to give information out there. In the same vein, a celebrity chef, let's say, talks about a great dish that they're cooking on the Food Network. Hey, if you need my services, you can get a hold of me through the social media platforms, and I'd be glad to have a conversation, but if not, one entrepreneur, one executive, one business person or another, I think giving the give-to-get strategy.

It also goes back to the no-like-trust-referrer that you and I live by and other people that we do business with live by, and I think that approachability works for that, but also I want them to know me as an individual, so I talk about some of the volunteer work I do in blood donations and in anti-human trafficking. I talk also about my part-time teaching at San Diego State because I absolutely love to give back. I am also a struggling guitar player, and some fellow people in our network, Josh Abel and Mike Galvez being two of them, if I can give them a shout.

I know you had Mike on this program. We have a program called Whiskey Rock. It is aptly named, at least for me.

I may have a whiskey or two as we're playing. I won't talk about anybody else, and we play music, and it's just for the fun of it, but hopefully people see that as approachability and honesty and authenticity, and that's really what I'm trying to get out there. I rarely do any boosting posts.

I don't do any advertising. They're from my network. People stay tops of mind, but then they can feel good and comfortable about referring me a piece of business if they have a client in a crisis.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:51 - 1:50:23)
I don't know if you've given any thought to this, but it's something that I've realized just in the last, I want to say year, maybe 18 months, is that you and I, we're in the same network. It's professionals, but it's people nationwide, and we're in the top, I would say, 10% of that network of people who frequently communicate with each other. We're really active, but one of the things that I found is LinkedIn in particular is it's become an extension of our regular lives, so much so that when I called you to ask you to come on, I feel like I'm hanging out with you all the time.

I'm in Galvez's living room or Josh Abel's living room while you guys are playing. I'm in the chair next to you while you're giving blood. I'm in your class at San Diego State.

I'm in the stands with you at a Padres game. I feel like I'm part of, and we're separated by 3,000 miles, but I feel like I'm part of what you've got going on there. That's what we should all, in my opinion, that's what we should all be going for.

Now, for you and me, because we network in a professional services space and we get a lot of referrals from people in professional services, LinkedIn works for us. If you were in a regular band and your profession was playing music, it might be Instagram or TikTok or something like that, but that's the way to look at that, right?

[Speaker 1] (1:50:24 - 1:50:42)
Yeah. You're right. LinkedIn is, for me, the primary platform.

I have a Facebook account. I have an Instagram account. I have an ex-account, but I haven't been using it.

I'm not on TikTok for a reason, largely because I'm concerned about the national security risks, even more so than- I won't download it on my phone.

[Speaker 2] (1:50:42 - 1:50:44)
My kids have it on their phones. I don't have it on my phone.

[Speaker 1] (1:50:44 - 1:51:26)
Yeah. It's not for me, but I'm not getting business from that audience there. I do keep an eye on that through, like I said, the Google searches and alerts for my own people talking about me, but I'm not active on that.

LinkedIn's the primary one because that's there. Facebook and Instagram are both for business colleagues, but also family members, particularly when it comes to the music playing that I do, only because I have a couple of other musicians in the family extended there and some friends, so to get their feedback is humbling. They're really good, and I'm just starting out there, and I'm thrilled about it.

[Speaker 2] (1:51:27 - 1:52:02)
That's great. No, that's terrific. All right.

Let's talk briefly about provisors because whenever I have a provisors member on, we talk a little bit about some tips as to how you leverage provisors to be successful. What I tell people is I take the provisors segment from these, and I share them with people in the group that I lead here in South Florida because there are a lot of people who have a lot of wisdom, a lot of experience leveraging provisors. What is it that you do that helps you leverage provisors from a business perspective?

[Speaker 1] (1:52:03 - 1:54:40)
Yes, like hell. The big thing on provisors is to guest, is to get out and meet people. Look, we're 10,000 strong, and I know you know this from literally every time zone in the United States now, which is amazing to see because I've been in 15 years.

This is my 16th year, and I started my seventh year as group leader. When I joined, it was in four markets, San Francisco, LA, Orange County, and San Diego. That was it, and now it's all over the place.

If you are only going to your home group once a month and a troika with 30, and if there's some guests, 40 or 50 people, or some of the home groups are 60 and above, awesome. You're not even scratching the surface of people that you should meet, not just to get business for you, but to refer them to your clients because your clients need that added service. We have still, I think, one of the best vetting processes for new members that any networking group has because we are not looking for your starter people.

We are looking for people who have some experience in their craft, who are decision makers within their firm, who can actually make change. In doing so, this is about as much giving as getting, and you need to be accessible to them so that you can bring them into clients when it's appropriate because that's what your clients demand from you. It's about me looking good because I brought in Dave Lorenzo to help out with an exit success issue or a sales dynamic that's going on there, those kind of things.

The only way you do that is to guest. Now, like you, I guest a ton. That's probably because most of my clients are short-term clients, so I'm at 15-ish meetings a month, virtual and in-person throughout the country, and that's great.

I'm not suggesting the provisor members have to do that, but I would suggest you at least go to one other one besides your own. As an affinity group leader, I'm a little partial to that because they're topic specifics, but you draw from members from all over the home groups, but no matter where you decide to guest, find a group to do so and guest regularly, and then to the extent that your schedule allows, at least guest a couple more times, but I'd say at least one more group plus your home group is the minimum to make provisors work.

Otherwise, it's a very expensive and probably not as lucrative of a venture as you could make it to be a member of provisors.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:41 - 1:56:11)
Yeah, I think that's great advice. The other thing that I want your take on because you mentioned affinity groups is the value of connecting with people who are like you and guest all over. So for me, if I'm going to request somebody that I want to, we call them troikas when you get together with people after a meeting, if I'm going to request somebody that I'm going to do a troika with, what I've learned over the last few years is I want to request the troika with Dave Oates.

I want to request the troika with the person who's guesting a lot of other places because if I'm going to invest, it's usually like 45 minutes to an hour with two other people. I want to invest that time with two other people who can give me some insight into where I should be going, who I should be meeting. It's far better for me to invest that 45 minutes with somebody who can give me a broad spectrum of perspective than somebody who probably only goes to one or two meetings every month and only knows a handful of people.

So I think if you can figure out, because there are people, first of all, group leaders are always going to be a great resource, right? If you don't know who to connect with, connect with the group leader of any group, they're going to know 30 people compared to three. Second, there are people who you see who are members who you see in other groups, those are the people you want to connect with because they're going to five or six meetings a month.

They'll clue you in on what's good.

[Speaker 1] (1:56:11 - 1:56:36)
Yeah, no, you've nailed it, right? It's the other thing that I say is be selective as to who you decide you want to troika with. And that's not because there aren't great people across the board, but you want to make it worth your time to people that you can help and that can help you.

And those are usually the more active members, right? The members who are guesting for that one there. So yeah, I don't disagree with anything that you said on that.

[Speaker 2] (1:56:36 - 1:56:44)
What do you do for follow-up? How do you follow up with people after you? I'm always curious as to what people do.

How do you connect with them after?

[Speaker 1] (1:56:45 - 1:57:41)
I connect with them usually by a LinkedIn invite. And then in the notes section, I talk about, hey, enjoyed the troika. And if there was something specific that I said, hey, I really appreciate the fact that you talked about this, this, this, whether it was their story, how they got into their business, the nonlinear route, or something that I didn't know about them that was additional to their services, or gave me a little bit more ideas to their ideal customer.

Cause let's say you get, let's say you get five bankers in the room, but somebody says I do equipment financing, right? I really focus on equipment financing. Oh, that helps me because if that's, you know, if you know that area backwards and forwards, and I've got a client that is in need of that one there.

Yeah. There are five good bankers, but this is the guy or gal who knows equipment financing better than anybody. They're likely to get that particular referral and everybody else to do that.

So, so, you know, that's how I follow up and, and try to get a little bit more understanding of their specifics and then, and then tell them how much I appreciate it.

[Speaker 2] (1:57:41 - 1:58:51)
That's fantastic advice. If you can put point, put your flag in the ground and focus on one thing so that people can remember you. So we, there's a group leader here in South Florida, Ellen Stewart.

She's a financial advisor for Wells Fargo. And you and I probably both know a thousand financial advisors, right? The reason that Ellen Stewart stands out in my mind is because whenever you talk to her, she's talking about cash balance plans.

Now, cash balance plans are for people who are highly compensated individuals. This is for people who are going to make 400,000, $500,000 a year, and they don't need 400,000 or $500,000. They probably need 200,000 to live on.

They want to take the rest and shelter it from taxes. That's where a cash balance plan comes in. So the first time I have a Troika with Ellen Stewart, she says cash balance like six times.

And I'm like, nobody improvisers has ever talked to me about cash balance plans. Tell me what the hell this is. Dave, do you know that within like three weeks of meeting with her, I found somebody that needed a cash balance plan?

[Speaker 1] (1:58:53 - 1:59:34)
Isn't it funny? It's like I hear a word like I have readers, right? And when I was getting readers, all of a sudden I started looking around my neighborhood, like where did all these, where did all those optometrist offices show up for?

Well, they'd been there all along, but it was only because all of a sudden I was attuned to the fact that I was wearing readers that all of a sudden I saw all these eye doctor places, right? And I think that's the same way there. Once you understand somebody and it's a memorable specific niche, chances are you have people in your network that need that, right?

That are in demand, but now you can connect the dots, right? So yeah, that happens all the time.

[Speaker 2] (1:59:35 - 1:59:49)
And I never would have thought to ask a question that would have led to that because who asks, do you want to shelter several hundred thousand dollars from taxes? Who's going to, other than Ellen Stewart, who's going to ask that?

[Speaker 1] (1:59:50 - 2:00:16)
This is really valuable. So we take this from providers. There were three things that we've taken away from our conversation, right?

Guess like hell, pick your pick and choose your troikas carefully and define a defensible niche for yourself that no one else can touch because of your experience and your credentials. And more often than not, that's going to be your key to success, not only in the get strategy, but also the give strategy.

[Speaker 2] (2:00:16 - 2:00:21)
All right, Dave. So if people want to get ahold of you, how can they get in touch with you? LinkedIn.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:22 - 2:00:48)
Dave Oates, Crisis PR. My LinkedIn should pop up as well as my website, Public Relations Security, YouTube channels, other place like that. Any place at all they want to connect, I would love to.

And there's a way on my site to secure 15 minutes of my time free. No obligation. If you're dealing with a matter, I'll just talk through that and wish you all well, if nothing more.

But hey, Dave, this has been great. It's really good to be back on the program.

[Speaker 2] (2:00:48 - 2:01:03)
Oh, no, it is. It is absolutely my pleasure. I always love talking to you.

So we're going to put Dave's LinkedIn info and his website down below. You can go there, get whatever you need. You also have a course or two, right, on LinkedIn?

Don't you have a course? I do. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:03 - 2:01:07)
I got four on the LinkedIn Learning page. So yeah, that's on there.

[Speaker 2] (2:01:07 - 2:01:31)
All right, great. So you're going to go to Dave's LinkedIn. It's going to be down in the show notes.

If you're watching on Spotify or YouTube, just scroll down to the description. This is the Inside B.S. Show. I'm Dave Lorenzo, the Godfather of Growth.

We're here every day at 6 a.m. with a brand new show. Every Wednesday with an interview. We'll be back next Wednesday with Nikki G with another interview for you.

Until then, just hoping you make a great living and live a great life.