Hey, now welcome to another edition of the inside BS show. I'm Dave Lorenzo. And today we're talking about something.

I don't think in 120 some odd interviews we've talked about before, and that is executive search, but I have a unique take on executive search. I'm going to let our guests today explain all about that. If you're a business owner and you're going to sell your business one day, you want to pay attention to this interview.

If you're someone who perhaps would like to buy a business, you're going to want to take really good notes with regard to this interview. And if you're somebody who is looking for a job and you don't know what your next step could be, you might want to listen to this interview. My guest today is Warren Rutherford.

He's a succession based executive search expert, and he's going to explain to us exactly what that is and how he helps people. Please join me in welcoming Warren to the inside BS show. Warren, thank you for joining us.

It's such a pleasure to have you. Thanks, Dave. And I'm very happy to be here and thanks for having me on your inside BS show.

It's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. So let's start with the question that I start off with just about everyone.

Warren, were you like a little baby running around your house, helping other people find things to do with their time? How did you get into executive search? Was this like a lifelong aspiration of yours? How did you become a succession based executive search expert? Well, if you're talking about after I got out of diapers, I was probably the pest in the house because I was the youngest of three, so my mom always encouraged me to go someplace else, which I did. And along the way, I developed an executive search practice. Sure.

I was going to say, how do you get, how do you get into that for real in your career? How do you, uh, how do you become an executive, uh, an executive search business owner? Like, how does that happen? Well, like many business owners, I acquired another business from, uh, from a friend who wanted to retire. The business has been around since 1985. It was a search agency, a temp agency.

And when I bought it in 2009, the employees I had were primarily booking temps, about a thousand hours a week. And I realized within two weeks that, you know, you're, you're sending out a thousand hours, you're paying out a thousand hours. And the margin was about 1%, 2%.

So I said, what do I love doing? I love searching for executives. So I, I flipped the company's focus around to executive search, because that's what I love doing. And along the way, I also acquired the ability to do succession planning with business owners and found out along that consulting path, that a lot of business owners don't like plans, surprise, surprise, and don't like business plans in particular.

So asking them about what they're going to do when they leave the company is always met with, well, geez, Warren, I don't know. Um, I haven't thought about that. So when I do the executive search for those CEOs, for those particular companies, I'm working with the ownership and leadership team to guide them on a few future growth strategy.

So when you say succession based executive search, does that mean that the company, the, the owner of the company is looking to get out and he, and you're helping him find someone who can take the company over, or he may be looking to retire from the day to day and he still wants to own the company. So he needs a CEO to run the company day to day, or is it both? It's, it's more of the latter. The, the owner has gone to a business evaluator and found out that the business isn't worth the billion dollars he thought it was worth.

So he can't sell it. Um, so now he's stuck and he looks inside his company and he doesn't have someone inside the company to take over for him. So he talks to his management executive team and they agree essentially that we need to find an outsider to run the company and manage it while you, the owner can essentially move from the driver's seat to ride shotgun, will hire a CEO to drive it, and you can be that person's advisor riding shotgun, as I say, letting the, letting the CEO know when the car may be moving a little bit to the right and about hit the curb.

So you, you guide them back to the middle of the road, middle of the lane. What I find interesting about the whole process is that once you get them to plan for the future, you're also identifying those dysfunctions in the company, things that departments that aren't really working at top, top speed, and you're giving that CEO a game plan to implement over a five, seven year process. In the meantime, growing the company and all those particular areas and adding value to the bottom line so that five to seven, seven years from now, the owner will now say, okay, I'm ready to go.

The business has grown. I've given the CEO that option to purchase the company and you guys are doing a great job. Continue.

So you said something there that I think is really interesting. So the CEO who's in place has the option to purchase the company. What percentage of the deals that you do, does that CEO get that option? And what percentage is the CEO just in there and, you know, has a healthy comp package, but it's just in there to run the company and the owner has no, you know, no ambition to sell there.

They just want somebody to run their company, break it down for us. It's going to vary by the, by the company. Um, usually as part of the negotiation and bringing on that CEO, that's discussed, you know, does the CEO want a piece, some equity of the company? Does the owner want to give it? And I, I discussed that upfront with the executive team and the owner.

And if there's a willingness to do that, then they're going to be using their attorney and counsel to structure that deal, so to speak, and that offering to the CEO, sometimes that CEO is going to say thanks, but no thanks, as you just indicated, am I'm just here for, for the ride five, seven years, and then I'm going to move on to another opportunity. So it's going to vary depending on the individuals. My key is finding that person future fit for the company, for the candidate and see where there's an alignment between the two interests.

Yeah. I love the, I love a business model where there's a, there's a very specific niche. And I think your business model in particular has a great niche because.

Every business owner that I know just about it struggles with this exact issue at one point or another. Some of them figure it out early on. Maybe they have some sort of coaching and the coach says, Hey, how does this end for you? Right.

Which is my first question with every client that I ever take on. I say, okay, so you're bringing me in to help you grow your business, but how does your business end for you? And then, you know what I get Warren? I get this. I get, and for those of you listening and not watching, I just gave Warren a dumb look because people don't think about that.

The first thing they think of is how am I going to make money from this business? Right. So when you say, how does this end for you? Nobody really has a good answer. Some people somewhere along the line figure, okay, I got to bring up the next generation and that will be my succession plan, but entrepreneurs are going a hundred miles an hour.

Most of them never have time to think about it. So Warren, how do we bring up this conversation with the entrepreneurs in our life, with the people we know? How do we say, Hey, listen, you know, uncle Jim, your, your printing business, which has kept everybody in your family fat and happy for a hundred years requires you to work six days a week, you're 68 years old. At what point are you going to stop working six days a week and maybe work three? Like, how do you, you know, how do you bring that up with somebody in your life, whether it's a client or a friend or a family member, it's pretty simple.

Actually, you know, you, you referenced, they've been working 30, 40 years, mostly with a head sound they're working in that proverbial in the business. So then I'm looking at the factors that make the business fun. So like yourself, I ask a lot of questions and, you know, with other advisors, I suggest that they ask, have you looked at your customer base? Is your customer base increasing or decreasing? Are your employee turnover counts increasing, staying the same or decreasing? Those are two huge factors in whether or not that client or that prospect, that business owner has a viable business for growth.

If their customers are leaving them, if their employees are leaving, if their vendors are leaving there, if their products or services are now out of date, the sales are going to suffer. So those types of things lend to inattention and business revenues declining, multiples declining. So if, if you look at what we need to look at, what I look at is I, I ask others to ask simple questions.

How are your sales? Are they still increasing? Not really. Okay. When did they start declining? What's your employee turnover? Simple, basic questions about the business that the owner should know.

That's great. And Warren, what percentage of the businesses that you work with, do you have like a business unit assignment versus an overall, you know, ownership or business leadership assignment? So for example, if you're, well, let's start here. What size company is the perfect fit for you? And then we can talk about business unit versus CEO.

So what size company is a perfect fit for your business? It's going to be a, uh, it's going to be a range anywhere between 10 and 150, 200 million in revenues. Um, and, and then anywhere between 20 and 200 employees, but it's, it's privately owned. So closely held family owned companies.

So I won't, I won't do publicly traded or public companies. Sure. So a privately owned company may have two or three divisions.

Let's say a hundred million, a hundred million dollar company may have two or three divisions. How often do you get involved in the head of a specific division? And when you do get involved there, is it always kind of a succession model where the owner says to you, all right, Warren helped me with, uh, finding a head of, you know, this division who can eventually ascend to the CEO. Um, is it, you know, will you do a division head assignment and does it have to be someone who will ascend to the CEO or it's fine if they're just going to be a division head forever? It's okay if they're going to be a director level, C level employee, you know, I've, I'm doing several of those currently, um, companies call them differently and that that's okay.

I prefer the CEO level because at that high level of corporate, you're dealing with the executive team and the ownership team, um, to structure the future growth of their company. Okay. And when they, when they bring you in, what's the upfront work that you have to do to make sure you're finding someone who's a good fit? How do you, what's your analysis? How do you determine that you're, you know, where you're going to look and how you're going to look for them? Okay.

So two parts, the succession or business plan development and then the talent profile for the recruitment of the CEO. So working with ownership and executive team, developing a business profile, you know, where we've been, where we want to go and why, uh, what, as I said earlier, what functions need to be upgraded and enhanced, increase the bottom line value of the company and over what time period, then taking that information and that company profile and developing a talent profile specifically for the type of candidates we want to recruit to. And then the fun begins.

Um, not that the succession planning part isn't fun. It is, but the, the recruitment part is where I have a lot of fun. Um, because I'm looking at a profile development.

I'm looking at candidates who match up to that, what I call earlier a person future fit. I want to find the candidates whose career objectives match the objectives for the company's growth. And it may sound easy, but it's not.

Um, but it's, it's, it's doing that Apple to Apple match that's intriguing. And then going through a whole process of interviewing the candidates, screening them, testing them and assessing them based on that profile. And then working with ownership and the executive team to, to come to recommendations for finalists, negotiating packages and getting them on board.

And I always give a, at that level, I always give a year guarantee for my work. So if someone doesn't work out Dave in that particular year, um, I'll replace them with no additional charge. So then Warren, the, for me, it seems like that, you mentioned that that's the fun part.

That seems to me to be the hardest part. Cause in, from an outsider's perspective, it's like you're looking for a needle in a haystack, right? Do you have an industry specific focus or do you like, how do you find the exact fit for, you know, the, any given company at any given time? Ah, but that's a secret. Well, so, but give us, give us a little taste of what your, what your due diligence process is like so that people will have confidence that, you know, you obviously you've been in business a long time, you know what you're doing, but you know, give us a little taste of how you, how you go about it.

You have a great network. I know people who are in your network, so you have a great network, but what else, what else do you do to make sure that you're hunting in the right place for that exact fit? So I've always said that the best candidates are not looking for work. However, they are connected on social media platforms.

Um, the good candidates, while they're not looking for work, like to be seen, like to publish, like to interact. So platforms, social media platforms like LinkedIn are excellent areas to, you know, do some searching for candidates. You find out what they do, what they post, why they post, who they're connected with.

Um, are they good opportunities? If you use different paid advertising sites, like Indeed, nah, not going to work at that level. And there's others that don't work as well. So I primarily look at social media sites.

Um, and then when I find candidates and this is the fun one, um, you always look up to see what their Facebook posts are. If they have a Facebook presence, most of them don't, the good ones, the ones that you usually don't want to connect with. Well, are the ones that have Facebook posts that have, geez, you know, I drank five beers last week, you know, with my buddies.

You don't want to introduce them to a client. Um, but those types of social media posts, you kind of walk away from them and say, yep, I get that. Um, have fun.

And I've had candidates say, well, Warren, why didn't you refer to me? And I said, well, I just don't think that you're the type that's going to match up to my client's needs. So you, you have to be, uh, you have to be a great networker to do what you do. You also have to be like part private investigator cause you gotta make sure that the person that you're putting in front of your client represents you well, even if they're not a fit for the job, they can't look, you can't have the client do a quick search and find, you know, them at Mardi Gras dropping beads off a balcony.

Right. So, um, tell, tell folks a little bit about, like I want you to elaborate a little bit about what you just talked about. Cause one of the things that I did in my own, for my own personal benefit, it's gotta be a couple of years ago now is I went through, I mean, everything lives forever on the internet, but I went through my Facebook profile and I deleted anything that would be, uh, that was about religion, politics.

I mean, I never posted anything about sex anyway, but religion or politics. And basically my Facebook profile now is all like kids, hobbies, and dogs. That's all you see on my Facebook profile.

My kids, you know, the two or three hobbies that I have and pictures of me, you know, running around with my dogs, training my dogs, walking my dogs, whatever. Because those are the most innocuous things I could put on Facebook. And I just use Facebook to keep up with people, uh, who I grew up with people who I went to college with.

That's the only thing I use it for these days. I don't use it to get out my frustrations. I don't use it to talk about politics.

I don't use it for any of the stuff that I see on there. Give people advice, whether you're a company executive, an entrepreneur, you're never gonna, you know, you're never gonna look for another job again or you're somebody who may be looking for another job. Give people advice about what they should be putting online and what they shouldn't be putting online.

Like you mentioned, you know, drinking the 20 beers and stuff. That's kind of common sense, but give us some of the nuance stuff that shouldn't be on there ever. Well, I, I think that if, if I was to repeat what you just said, um, that's an, I, that really is an ideal picture of what you should be putting on your, your Facebook account or Instagram or Tik TOK or whatever the platform is.

Stay, you know, stay away from political commentary, stay away from, you know, sexual connotations and anything in that area. Similar to what you said, Dave, what I find objectionable to many is they're putting up their political points of view or they're making sexual comments, perhaps to them unknowingly, inadvertently or racist comments. Just not, just not thinking.

Yeah. And, and I think the best advice is one which you talked about, which is use your common sense. Somebody someplace is going to do a word search for Dave Lorenzo or Warren Rutherford.

God forbid. They're going to find out all about my dog or my wife's dog or whatever, but they're going to do a word search on Google and they're going to find us on Facebook. They're going to find us on Instagram and they're going to look and they're going, I'm not going to talk to that dude.

No way do I want him working for my company or her working for my company. And it's an instantaneous search response. Yeah.

Yeah. One of the things that I'd love your opinion on Warren is, um, and I'm seeing this creep into LinkedIn more and more is not necessarily the post itself, right? But it's the commentary. So somebody else will post something that I don't think should be on LinkedIn.

They'll post a political point of view. And then, you know, the, the person who would never post that themselves goes on their LinkedIn profile and just absolutely blasts them. Right? I mean, they don't realize then that that is also searchable.

So comments too that you make on other people's stuff is searchable. You, you know, one of the things that, uh, that I was taught back when I was, when I was a little baby manager in a hotel somewhere crawling on the rug, sniffing for puke as a housekeeping manager, my boss said, you never want to say anything at work that you wouldn't want on the front page of the New York times. Right.

So that's exactly the way we need to approach social media these days. Like nobody, nobody wins a client over by getting into a fight on social media. That doesn't, that doesn't, that doesn't endear you to people.

So even in the comments, right? I mean, Warren, am I, am I off base here? Oh no, you're, you're on spot. Um, it's again, it's common sense. And what your prior manager said to you applies all the time, every time.

Um, you don't want to, you don't want to be quoted on something that you probably will regret at some point in the future. And you don't know when that some point in the future is going to be. So, you know, when I'm looking at your candidacy for a job, I'm going through all that information.

Yes, I'm going through your application, your resume, your cover letter, but I'm going through the background too. And it's, and it's a dig deep search. Why? And you mentioned it earlier, Dave, my client's going to do that.

They're going to have someone in the organization doing that very same search. And I want to make sure that whoever I present to my clients is squeaky clean. Or if there's something there that my client would find amusing, I'll point it out to them and say, because they'll say invariably, why didn't you recommend Dave Lorenzo? Well, okay.

He's a talented, qualified guy. He runs this, this program called Inside BS. He's, you know, he, but here's something I want you to look at.

And this is why I didn't refer him to you. Oh yeah. I see why.

Okay. I understand. And that's, that's as far as it usually goes.

So Warren talk about in, during the interview process, how and when do you, do you disclose things that, you know, things that could be problematic. And I'll give you, I'll give you an example. So a friend of mine is a, is a, is a really good business operator, but he went into the wrong business at the wrong time.

And you know, the business during during the great recession got killed. So he had a file for personal bankruptcy. He had a, he had a closed down his business, but I would hire him in a minute to run my business if he were available.

So let's say that person is a candidate and they they're going through the process. When should they disclose that they, because you, you're, I would assume you're going to tell them they should disclose it. At what point in the process should they disclose that maybe they have a bankruptcy in the past and they can explain it and, and talk about why they did what they did and what has become of them and their business since then.

Upfront and honest. Um, every candidate knows if I'm going to refer them forward, I'm going to be doing a credit criminal background check. Oftentimes depending on the client and educational check and the credit check always discovers past bankruptcies, you know, over a period of years, cause they're going to go to the credit houses.

When you do an, an employment check, um, your credit scores don't get impacted cause it's an employment reference check. So I can find out pretty easily within sometimes within 20 minutes what someone's credit is. So I, I always indicate to candidates, tell me now, but don't tell me later, please.

You know, if you've got something you want to talk about, talk about it and let's, let's let's put some understanding to it because for my clients, I want to explain that to them. You know, in, in your example, this person had some misfortune, whatever it was, but he or she is the best person that I want to put forward to you. But I want you to be aware of their background and they do too.

They want to be upfront and honest. Yeah. Now what, what things are like, what, if, if someone is, um, in that situation, are they, are, should they, should they just forget about applying for some jobs or should they apply for the jobs and be, and be forthcoming and explain it? And you know, if the, if the explanation is, is good or it makes sense for the job, then they'll move forward as a candidate anyway.

I mean, is it a waste of time for that person in that scenario? Because I actually was asked for this advice when the guy was coming out of it. He was like, nobody's ever going to hire me. And I said, no, I said, you have a legitimate, you would, you know, you were in real estate and the real estate market got crushed.

You have a legitimate reason for why your business did what it did. And you kept it alive as long as you can using all of your, all of your personal funds. And you know, you didn't file for a chapter seven, you file for a chapter 13.

So, so your creditors at some point got some money back. They didn't, they didn't get totally stiffed. So you have a plausible explanation.

Like this guy was thinking there are some jobs he just couldn't apply for. Yeah. Do you encourage the candidates to apply for the jobs and try to explain it and see what happens? Oh, absolutely.

Um, in the past four months, I did a search for a client, uh, on a California position. And you know, you look at, so it wasn't bankruptcy, but of the applicant, but it was bankruptcy of the company that he was working with. And you notice it because on the resume, it's two lines, you know, and it goes from 2020 to 2021.

Well, okay, dude, what happened? Well, the, the, the company went bankrupt. What was that? Well, the company went bankrupt and let everybody go. Uh, okay.

Can I talk to the owner or the CEO? Uh, the CEO got laid off too. I understand that, but can I talk to him? So, you know, as a reference, he gave the CEO as a reference and talking to that individual, it was the investors who backed out the venture fund backed out because they didn't like the business model that they had designed that the CEO and company were implementing. So very good reasons, but their market and marketing strategy was flawed and their sales were plummeting.

So they just, they dissolved the company. Good explanation. That fella was one of three finalists in, except for the fact that he was in another city, he would have gotten hired for the position.

Yeah. He was awesome. That's great.

He was, he was truly awesome. So, you know, I, I, it's like anything, you know, you look below the hood, you look below the covers and find out what is there. And as long as they're honest and straightforward, that's all I can ask them to do.

And then I evaluate them against other candidates and I evaluate them against the profile of the company and what the company needs to be successful. Yeah. I mean, the disclosure is the key there.

The fact that he told you, that's, that's the, that's the key. Talk to me about working in different States. Is it, um, is it, is it more challenging to work in some States than others? And, you know, you can do all that stuff from, from your office in new England.

How does, how does it work? Explain, explain how, how it works when you, when you're doing, you know, two or three different searches at the same time across the country. The ease of it right now is travel can be accomplished with Microsoft teams or zoom or any other video platform that resides on the internet. So, you know, I, I just, the search I just referenced was for an English based company having me do a search in California.

So there's, you know, right now, there's eight hours time span between the two areas. And here I am in a little old Cape Cod, uh, three hours, three hours back from California and five hours out from England. So you just, you arrange the timeframes and you do all your interviews online, um, both with the client and the candidates.

So geography does not make a difference anymore. Um, except where the, the client requires me to be in present. And then I go there.

And as long as the planes don't cancel their route because they don't have pilots or stewardess crew, I'm ready to go. Uh, you're hitting a, you're hitting a sore spot with me now, Warren. I've had the last week I had four flights canceled.

So, uh, let's not, let's not even go there. What, when you, so how do these people find you? What's the, what's the, what's the magic to people finding Warren Rutherford? Are there, are there billboards from coast to coast with your face on it? Hey, call me when you're ready to retire. Like how do, how do people find Warren Rutherford? Yeah, you could do automatic billboards.

I haven't tried that yet though. Um, so looking for an executive search firm in Boston is where you're going to find me. Um, and Boston's a big place and there's competition, but a lot of it is network based, uh, through my professional networks, provisors, and otherwise, um, member of exit planning exchange provisors.

Plus I reach out, um, on an email basis, do email marketing. Um, and I'm working the search engine optimization thing. I'm not, I'm not all that much of a techie.

I'll admit to that. I know how to turn my computer on, run zoom with teams and, but I have my limits to my capabilities. So let's put it that way.

What surprises you, Warren, when somebody finds you, what, what way that they find you surprises you? I mean, you and I, and where you, you and I are members of provisors and we're probably talking to a lot of provisors folks because there are provisors folks who listen and watch the show. I'm not surprised that you get leads from provisors. Um, I wouldn't be surprised if you got great candidates from provisors, right? Cause that's what that network is all about.

And that's what that community is designed for. What way that people find you, uh, is most surprising to you? A client referral. Um, yeah.

So clients will refer another business owner to talk to me, um, or another advisor that's not connected to the networks we mentioned, uh, will call me up and say, I think you need to talk to these folks cause I can't help them. So oftentimes that'll be a business broker, um, who has done the business valuation, has delivered the great news to the owners and the owners have said, yeah, it's not worth it. And that's not what am I going to do? Well, you should probably talk to Warren.

So, I mean, part of the, and that's not so much a surprise, Dave, as it is the effectiveness of the network and those folks understanding what I do, but the client referrals are, are the surprise because they're not planned. Um, and they usually occur over a conversation at dinner or a party or cocktails, whatever the may be. And, and the bottom line is you should call Warren.

All right. So now the, the candidates, uh, are, you know, you, you have your secret sauce where you find your candidates and you, your, your networks connect your referrals to you. Are there any industries that are not a good fit for what you do? So let's let, we're, we're on the other side.

Now we have, you know, people who are listening and they're thinking, Oh, I got somebody, I gotta call Warren right away. But this industry is no good. What industries don't work for what you're looking to accomplish in your, in your business? It's more that the people in those industries don't think I would work well with them.

And that's healthcare and banking. And that's primarily because executives and owners and those industries have their favorite search firms, recruiters that they've used forever. Um, and I decided a long time ago that it wasn't worth pushing that stone up the hill for them.

Cause I've been told over and over, you know, we use, we use specialists who understand finance or banking and you don't understand healthcare. And I said, well, you know, I get my physical every year. Uh, that's not usually not enough.

So by, you know, I, I, I'd leave that to be, um, because those search professionals are successful in those areas for those industries. But pretty much everything else is, is working for me, whether it's retail distribution, manufacturing, you name it. Um, I have fun doing it.

That's great. All right, Warren, I want you to take a minute right now. I'll give you a minute to think about this.

I want you to think of three things that folks should take away from our time together. Three things. I'm going to give you a minute to think about it while I remind people that we're brought to you by My Revenue Roadmap Guide.

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You can download your business development plan today. We're also brought to you by Sandrowski Corporate Advisors. You heard me mention Sandrowski earlier.

If you need help with a business valuation or you need help with planning for your family's future, let's say you're a family of means. You've done well in your life, in your career, and you want to make sure that you have mitigated all your tax exposure. You need to reach out to the folks at Sandrowski Corporate Advisors.

You heard earlier in the show, the Sandrowski Business Minute. Those folks are there to help you reduce your tax exposure and make sure that everything is set up exactly the way you want it. You can reach out to them.

All you need to do is scroll down below this video. You'll see a link there to Sandrowski's website. You can click on the website and check them out.

You can also call the phone number that's down there to reach out to them today. Sandrowski Corporate Advisors, they're a CPA firm with a different perspective. My guest today is Warren Rutherford.

He's a succession-based executive search expert. If you want to call Warren, you need to call 508-778-7700. 508-778-7700.

His contact info is also down below us in the show notes. You can click on the link to his website, check him out. You can email him or give him a call.

508-778-7700. All right, Warren, what did you come up with for the three things we should take away from our time together today? So here's three things. First, I provide succession-based executive search.

I work only with closely held family-owned businesses where the owners have no successors in the company. Second, I work with that owner and their executive team to develop a succession-based growth plan for the company in areas that need improvement. And that's their guide for the future.

And third, and almost as important, is I conduct a CEO search that's specific for that company so that I can find the best candidate to match up with the company's growth and succession plan. All right, Warren, thank you so much. Folks, my guest today was Warren Rutherford.

You can reach out to him at 508-778-7700. Warren, thank you so much for joining us on the Inside BS Show. It was an absolute pleasure having you on today.

Thanks, Dave. And I enjoyed it very much. And I'm glad that you stayed away from my personal stories because those would have been a lot of fun and laughs, but I understand this is a business show.

Alrighty, folks, that'll do it for this episode of the Inside BS Show. My name is Dave Lorenzo. Until next time, here's hoping you make a great living and live a great life.