[Dave Lorenzo]
Welcome to the Inside BS Show. Today is Wednesday and every Wednesday we do an interview. Today, the interview is with Brian Tannenbaum.

He is a criminal defense and bar grievance attorney based in Miami, Florida. Now you're thinking to yourself, Dave, you're writing a book for people who want to attract high net worth clients. Why on earth are you interviewing a criminal defense lawyer and a guy who does bar grievance work?

Well, if you think about the nature of Brian's clients and where he is in his career, he's been practicing over 20 years in his career, he charges a lot of money. In order to be able to afford him, you have to be a high net worth person, whether you're an attorney who owns a practice and he has represented multimillionaire attorneys who have run afoul of the Florida bar and their grievance process. He's also represented doctors in licensing issues.

He's represented high net worth families and individuals who have been accused of crimes or been under investigation or been subjects of interviews in high profile cases, and he charges a flat fee upfront. And that flat fee is in the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. So he is a perfect person for me to start my research process with.

And I specifically ask him about relationship-based business development. I specifically ask him many questions about networking because all of his business comes from relationships. He does not advertise.

He does not have any other business development methods he uses. It's all about relationships. And we go into that in great detail.

So sit back and relax. Join me for my interview here on the Inside BS Show with my friend of 18 years, a fantastic criminal defense and bar grievance defense lawyer, Brian Tannenbaum. Here we go.

Let's start with, give us your name, the name of your firm. And what you do.

[Brian Tannebaum]
So my name is Brian Tannenbaum. My firm is by the same name, Brian Tannenbaum, PA. I am an ethics and criminal defense lawyer, although candidly, most of my practice these days is ethics and people, even lawyers will say, well, what is an ethics lawyer?

I represent lawyers. I represent judges. I represent law students.

I represent law firms in various proceedings, mostly disciplinary. A lot of consultations and some litigation when it comes to disqualifying lawyers or sanctioning lawyers. But basically anytime a lawyer, judge or law student has an issue, the call may be coming my way.

[Dave Lorenzo]
So do you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

[Brian Tannebaum]
I'm an extrovert. Although as I get older, I, like a lot of people, am interested in doing less things with more people. I'm always happy to go and do something and meet some people and say, hello, I'm not one of those people who stands in a corner when I'm out because I think that's, you know, probably nonproductive.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Do you, is your preference to meet people one on one or do you prefer group settings? Which, which dynamic do you favor?

[Brian Tannebaum]
I prefer one on one. If not, I prefer a small group because I find I can have deeper conversations with people in a small group.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Do you, and this is, I'm already breaking my protocol here. You're an excellent speaker. You're great in front of a room full of people.

Do you consider that different than networking?

[Brian Tannebaum]
No, I think it's the same thing. This morning, you know, it's funny you mentioned this. I was at the University of Miami Law School speaking.

I speak there a couple of times a year to the students and I find that to be networking because some of those students reach out to me later and not just for professional work, but because they have a question or the something they work in a firm where they happen to know someone that I know, so I consider that one of the best forms of networking.

[Dave Lorenzo]
What is your goal when you, when you do that, when you go to a, when you go to a networking event, whether it's in a group or one-on-one, do you have a goal in mind when you go in and if you do, what is your goal?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Well, first of all, I think you have to have a goal. Otherwise you're just going to a party. Uh, my goal is always been the same.

I want to meet one person and maybe follow up with them at some level. My goal is not to go there with a stack of business cards, hand them out to as many people as I can, and hope that somebody calls me. I want to have a very substantive conversation with one person, maybe two, and out of that room, uh, I follow up with one person at a later time.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Okay. And if you had to guess, and maybe you don't have to guess, maybe you keep track of this, how much, how much of your revenue on an annual basis would you say, uh, comes to your business each year from networking? You can give it to us on a percentage basis if you want.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Well, I'll start with this. I don't advertise, so a hundred percent of my business is referrals. And at this stage of my career, I'm in my 30th year of practice.

Uh, one of the greatest moments I have, and I have it more and more, is somebody will contact me and say, I heard you speak six years ago at this event, and, uh, you know, now I need to talk to you. Uh, so I believe that the majority of my clients come from networking.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Hmm. Okay. So the bulk of the work that you get comes from networking.

How did you first realize that networking, relationship building were going to be important in your professional practice?

[Brian Tannebaum]
In college. So in college, um, I was involved in the Florida governor's campaign and I was on this committee of the people who were working on his campaign and I would go to these meetings and at that time, what I realized was, uh, most everything starts with who can make this happen, not who's the smartest person in the room. Who can make this happen?

And that's when I started realizing, uh, the old phrase that everybody likes to say, which is not what you know, it's who you know, um, that's what I learned is that it's who can make it happen, not who's the smartest person in the room.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Man, that's such a great insight that just that phrase alone, who can make this happen? When you think about things that way, it, it just changes your entire perspective. I, we go to networking events and I see so many people clamoring or, or beside themselves to get around the most charismatic person or the person who tells the best story, the person who's the most engaging or the person who's got the most cachet or is the most famous in the industry, right?

But if we go into it, thinking to ourselves, we're going to go into this room and we're going to look for somebody who can make it happen, I want this outcome, I'm looking for somebody who can make this happen, but like that is, that is a fantastic way of phrasing it. That's a, that's a great insight. So Brian, when you think about networking, what does networking mean to you?

Or what does that, that phrase mean to you?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Networking means to me, finding a way to connect people. Uh, I've always believed that the, you know, biggest impact you can have in life is on other people. Uh, and networking, I believe is defined as connecting people either with yourself or with other people.

But I think the highest level of networking is connecting people with other people.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah, no, I, I, I agree with that. How do you measure success with your, with your networking efforts?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Um, when someone calls me and says, uh, I got your name from three people. When that happens, uh, that's my case. I can lose it by, you know, doing something wrong, but that's my case.

Um, the sale has been done. I call it a sale. Um, but it, it's all done.

And, uh, so that's when, um, you know, I measure the outcome of networking by that circle of referrals and how strong and, and deep it is.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Tell me about the, and again, this is, this is not on my question protocol, but you, you bring something up that I think is, is relevant because it's very specific to you, the value of networking and building your personal brand. You, what you just said there is when somebody says, I got your name from three people and I give out, you know, I give out your name all the time. And when I mentioned Brian Tannenbaum, they said, well, oh, he, of course, of course, you're going to recommend him.

He's the guy for that, right? You've built a brand for being the ethics lawyer in, you know, in Florida, but in particular Miami Dade County in South Florida, what is the value of networking to you in building a personal brand?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Well, it's all coming back to me now as, you know, Celine Dion sings. Um, when you're young and you're networking, uh, you know, you're, you're in a position where you're like, is this working right? And maybe you can value it at that point where, yeah, I'm getting calls, things are happening, this and that.

But I, you know, I can tell everyone who's getting into the networking world that it's at this point in your career, 25, 30 years later, when, you know, you get those types of calls from people that say, listen, you know, you're the guy, here's my checkbook, how much is it? You know, I want you to be my lawyer. There's no sales job.

You know, the value comes from all of those reputational things that you did back in the day and all of those events you went to and all of those speaking engagements and all of those articles that you wrote that live forever on the internet, so the value to me is like exponential as time goes on.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. It snowballs.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yes.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah, for sure. Can you share a story of a time when your networking efforts led to a breakthrough opportunity for you, for your firm?

[Brian Tannebaum]
So when I was a younger lawyer, just starting out in private practice, um, you know, I was going to everything. I mean, as people joke, like I would go to the opening of an envelope. Um, I was going out, you know, eight days a week to things, um, any kind of event, any kind of thing, but a lot of, a lot of lawyer stuff, but the one thing that I realized was, you know, back then I was doing a hundred percent criminal defense.

And so I realized I needed to be in a room with lawyers who didn't do criminal defense. There was obviously a lot of criminal defense bar, you know, CLE and parties and happy hours and things like that. But I needed to go to places where lawyers were that didn't do what I did.

And I went to this happy hour one night, you know, two free drinks, the whole thing. And I met a lawyer who worked at a big civil law firm. Uh, and he was fairly young too, maybe a year or two older than me.

And all of a sudden he starts referring me cases, uh, the next year he was 15% of my business. Wow. Um, and continued to be an incredible resource for me as the years went on.

So that was the first moment when I realized that, wait, I just went to this thing, uh, with people that don't do what I do, I met this one guy. We spent a lot of time talking and all of a sudden, you know, when it was a while too, it wasn't like the next week, but I think it was like a couple of months later, I got a call and somebody said, Oh, you were referred to me by this guy. And I was like, Oh, that's how this happened.

And then it continued to happen. And that was the breakout for me when I realized how important this is.

[Dave Lorenzo]
And what do you do to consistently build and maintain those strong relationships?

[Brian Tannebaum]
So, so I think this is so simple. I think people try to develop, you know, systems and ways of, you know, keeping in touch with people. I think I let people know I'm thinking about them.

Um, I send them a related article. I just read something that, you know, made me think about you. Um, there's an event coming up in town that I think you may be interested in because you mentioned to me that, you know, you're a big bourbon drinker and there's a big bourbon event.

And, you know, I thought, I don't know if you saw this, but maybe you'd be interested in it. Um, congratulations on successes is always like an easy thing, but I think the most important thing in that is always be personal, personable. Um, I'm not into the canned birthday, happy birthday, you know, thing.

Like if I'm going to wish somebody happy birthday, I'm going to write them a little message. I may text message them and stay off the social media chain. Um, I want them to know, Hey, I'm reaching out to you about this.

And, you know, I just wanted to say hello.

[Dave Lorenzo]
You, I, you know, you're, you practice what you preach. You sent me before this, yesterday, you sent me a very, something that was very unique to me that you saw on Instagram, which you know, would, I would immediately relate to and it would immediately pull my hair out. So yeah, a hundred percent.

Um, how do you approach adding value to others without expecting anything in return? You know, we, we talk all the time about, you know, being a giver and you and I belong to a B and I group back in the day and the mantra was givers gain. Right.

In addition to the alliteration, it also happens to be a good philosophy. But how do you do that? It's easy to say hard to do, right?

Cause sometimes we got to go way out of our way to help somebody. And I mean, for me now, years later, it's easy for me to do that because I've seen the payoff. I know the karma that comes from it.

When you're first starting out, how do you, how do you do that?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Uh, two words, accept nothing. Um, if you're going to do something for somebody, uh, to add value to them, the way you do that is by accepting nothing. When I, when I was young in private practice and I would have an opportunity to refer a case to somebody, obviously the first question I always got was, well, do you want a referral fee?

And, you know, I don't know why, but I always said no. Um, and I'm not talking about a contingency case where a personal injury lawyer may get, you know, a lot of money on something and write a check. I'm talking about a lawyer who's being, you know, charged by the hour, um, or getting a flat fee for something.

I always felt like, well, I'm like, why am I going to take money out of your pocket just because I made a phone call and said, Hey, this client wants you to represent them. So I think the first thing is, you know, we learned in B&I givers gain, but I, I add to that and I say, you know, accept nothing and also be all in on the effort. If you're going to connect people, be in on the connection as much as you can be.

You know, if I'm going to introduce you to someone, Dave, and I'm going to say, Hey, I want you to meet this person. I'm going to say, you know, would you like to all three of us get coffee together, or maybe, you know, get on a zoom call or we'll have, you know, I'm having lunch with him next Thursday. You know, would you like to join us?

I've, I've already told him about you. So I think instead of just kind of firing off that email or making a referral, I think if you're connecting people, at least make the attempt to be all in on that connection and, and make sure that you're trying to make it happen more than just passing off the name. And when you're trying to add value to people, accept nothing in that transaction.

[Dave Lorenzo]
So, uh, it's, it, I remember discussing scenarios with you when people would offer referral fees. And this was in a time when I had just started working with lawyers. I had worked with large companies and I had just started working with sole practitioners and small law firms.

And one of the things that I started saying to people regularly, because it was the truth is the best lawyers I know don't take referral fees and they all use this same expression, no thanks. Just take care of my client or no thanks. Just take care of my friend.

Everybody who I know who was a good lawyer used that phrase and they wouldn't accept referral fees. And I, you know, I can, I can name them, you know, Julie Ferguson, who unfortunately is not with us anymore. You know, uh, people at big firms who, if they took the referral fee, it would have been complicated and they didn't want the complication or the stigma of having people think that they were only offering the case to this person.

They didn't want the, the perception to be the only reason I'm recommending lawyer X is because he's paying me. I'm recommending him because I think he's the best person for you to work with. And I, it, that to me is so powerful.

And now, as I think about it, I think about the people that I I've known over the years who the first question out of their mouth is, will they pay a referral fee when they ask me who they should refer it to and they're not categorically all bad lawyers, but they're like middle of the pack. They're not the best. Like the people who are the best.

I get the impression they think to themselves, it's not worth the risk to my reputation. First of all, they would disclose, listen, I'm sending you to Joe Smith and I'm receiving a fee for participating in the case. They would disclose it because it's the right thing to do, but they don't want that perception, right?

So it's, I think that when it comes to referring work and getting paid for referring work and networking, if it's an accepted practice, I think you have to disclose it and you have to be sure when you're disclosing it, it's not going to have an impact on the brand you're trying to build because just like, you know, I said, you know, you have always said, just take care of my client to anybody that you've sent the work to.

There's somebody right now telling a story about Joe Smith, the attorney who the first question out of his mouth was, well, if I send the work to Tannenbaum, is he going to pay me a referral fee? And, you know, my, my reaction would be, you know what? He's not your guy, right?

This is, he's not your guy, this is not, this is not going to work out for you.

[Brian Tannebaum]
When I was a younger lawyer, there was a lawyer I remember who was trying to send me work, criminal work. And every time he called, he said, will you pay me a referral fee? And I said, no, you know, I'm going to charge this client X amount of dollars.

And, you know, that I'm probably going to lose money on the case. Cause that's how criminal cases work a lot, you know? And, and one time I said to him, and it was obviously the last time I had this conversation.

I said, listen, I have a question for you. Are you looking for a relationship or a transaction? And that was the end.

You know, I never got another referral and, you know, he went on his way and, and, and that's okay, but just, you know, this is how I choose to do things because I'm trying to develop relationships with people. My hope is that, you know, I'm going to refer you a couple matters. And at some point, you know, maybe you need me for something.

And if you don't, you don't, but you know, that's just the way I do things. I mean, I had somebody say to me one time, you know, why don't you monetize your connections? I mean, you, you introduce people to people for certain reasons, you know, a lot of people.

Have you ever thought about monetizing that? And of course my answer was like, no, I just, it's not in my DNA. And look, there are people who do that, like for a living.

They, they make connections, they get a piece of a contract or a piece of a, of something. And then that's all fine. But to me, you know, I've always felt like the more that I roll out the carpet for people, the more that I help other people connect with other people, eventually it's going to come back to what it has come back to after 30 years, which is somebody calls me and they say, please represent me.

I I've heard your name a hundred times. Like I, and it's just like, why did that happen? It didn't happen.

Cause I'm a great lawyer. There's a lot of great lawyers out there. I mean, maybe that's part of it to them, but to them, it's like, I keep hearing this guy's name.

Why did that happen? Not through advertising. It happened through networking.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. What's the biggest mistake you see people make when it comes to networking?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yeah. I'm trying to sell themselves. I think it's a total turnoff.

Uh, it's walking into a happy hour. Somebody walks up to you and the first question is, hi, what do you do for a living? I'm a lawyer.

Oh, I'm a mortgage broker. Here's my card. If you ever need a mortgage, call me.

Well, I know like a dozen mortgage brokers. Some of them are my friends. Uh, I I've met you like eight seconds ago.

I don't, I have no idea why I would ever call you or refer you to anyone. I don't even know anything about you. Are you married?

I mean, do you, do you like wine? Do you like sports or do you travel? Like, who are you?

And so I find that people walk into networking events or, you know, those kinds of things. And their goal is how many business cards can I hand out? How many people can I meet?

And it's this very lack of substance type thing that they do when I'm talking about, well, why don't you just kind of pull me off in a corner and be like, so tell me about yourself, are you from Miami or whatever? Uh, I just think trying to sell yourself. I mean, one of the last things I want to tell people at a networking event is that I'm a lawyer.

I want to talk about everything else first. I want to talk about, you know, where I'm from, what I did last weekend. Have I been to Europe lately?

You know, what's going on in the world that interests me. And then at the end it's, by the way, what do you do? Oh, I'm a lawyer.

Oh, cool. You know, that's, that's where I want to be in a conversation.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. I, I couldn't agree with you more. Where do people get that idea from?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Well, they get it from somewhere and it's definitely a school of thought of when you go to a networking event, the goal is to hand out as many business cards as you can. Most of those I believe go in the garbage or go in some pile somewhere and, and turn into nothing. But I think it's a function of people being told that volume works.

And if you hand out a hundred business cards, somebody's going to call you. Maybe five people are going to call you. You know, my philosophy is, you know, if I can meet one person, that person's going to maybe refer me somebody in the future and I'm good with that.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. So I want to separate sales from marketing, from networking here, right? Give me your, give me your, your line because you, you're in professional services, so like sales is a dirty word, right?

Separate sales from networking for me. Define each, what's sales to you and what is, what is networking?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Well, sales is sales. I mean, sales is intentional, right? Sales is I'm, I'm, I'm in the market for something or somebody's in the market to sell me something.

And we're going to have that, what I call transactional discussion. Networking is at its core, the development of a relationship for the purpose of future business. I do not see, and look, I'm sure it works in some levels, but I think it depends on the people.

I do not see meeting someone for five minutes, exchanging business cards, and that is a relationship. That may be a transaction, right? You may meet someone who like doesn't know a florist or doesn't know a plumber or doesn't know, you know, a mechanic and they're like, Oh great.

You know, I was in the market for that. Those things always happen. But the difference between sales and networking is that one is a transaction that's intentional.

And the other is kind of a loose, Hey, let's get to know each other. It's like dating. I mean, they, you know, they have speed dating.

I think networking is much more like dating and, and candidly, you know, not to get, you know, dirty here, but you know, sales is more like a one night stand.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. Well, no, I agree with you. And I think that you can, you can sell to someone that you have a relationship with.

I, you know, for me, sales is solving a problem in exchange for financial compensation. So if I, if I ever got in trouble, if I got a DUI, if I had a problem with the legal system, you, you'd be my first phone call and we're, and we're friends, but you'd be my first phone call because number one, I have complete confidence that whatever's going on would stay between you and I, I mean, that goes without saying it's a, it's an attorney client relationship, but if you were a plumber and I had a backed up toilet, it would be embarrassing. And I would call you because you're not going to tell everybody.

We know, Hey, Lorenzo threw his cat down the toilet and that's what backed it up, right? That would be the first thing. The second thing would be the second reason would be because I've seen over the years, how you've handled other issues like the issue I have.

And I'm completely comfortable that if anyone can resolve the mess that I've got myself into, it's you because I, the trust has been developed over 18 years, right? So, and, and, and candidly, it could be 18 months, but that that's the level of trust that we have. And the reason that so many professionals gravitate toward networking and away from transactional sales relationships is because professional services requires trust.

The practice of law in any area requires trust first, even in a business to business setting, people are betting their careers on hiring a business litigator, on hiring a corporate transactional attorney. But outside of that, an accountant, you're going to disclose your financials to someone. It requires trust.

It's an intimate relationship. When it comes to consulting, even an interior designer, you're putting your reputation, your, your personal brand, your, how you present your home to friends, to family in the hands of someone. It requires trust rather than transactions, real estate, buying a home, selling a home, am I going to get the most money?

I got to trust someone that I'm going to get the best deal possible. And in order to make sure I'm going to get the best deal possible, I have to trust that person. That's why networking is so important in professional services.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yeah. I want to, I'm sorry, you're talking about sales a lot. You're talking about an item, right?

Not necessarily a service. And so people view it as, look, if I'm, if I'm buying a car, I'm generally going to buy it wherever it's cheapest. Now I may be one of those people who says, I know, but the dealership over here, they give me good service.

I like them and I'm willing to pay a little bit more. Most people are not like that. Most people, they can find something for $3 less.

That's where they're going to buy it. So there's really no trust. There's really no, it's just a direct sale kind of transaction thing.

But when you're talking about a professional service or buying something that's emotional, like a home, people are looking for a lot more than just, you know, where am I getting the cheapest price, particularly when it comes to hiring lawyers? Is there a market out there for the cheapest lawyer? Of course there is.

But there's also the market for this, I can't afford this guy. But like, I want him to be my lawyer and I've only got one shot at this. So I'm going to like, you know, borrow, beg and steal to like hire this lawyer.

Now that's not the majority of people, but there are those people out there.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Well, and I think there's also a mindset thing to this too. So yes, a hundred percent, the average person with professional services will lean toward networking versus a sales setting, but people like you and me, and probably most of the people we hang out with, even when we buy a commoditized product, like a car, we're going to be more thoughtful and you probably do something similar to what I do. And you think to yourself, okay, I know what I want car wise.

I've done all my research. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to trust someone that this transaction, because it will be a transaction, but this transaction is going to be as smooth as possible.

I don't want to spend four hours in the dealership. I don't want to be told, okay, you know, your monthly payment is going to be $680. And then they take it to the finance manager's office and an hour and a half later, three cups of coffee and a donut later, I come back to the finance manager's office and I'm told because of whatever the reason they made up, it's now going to be $1,200 a month, right?

So what we do instead, you and I, is we find someone we trust, a car broker, or the one guy at the dealership who says, Brian, whenever you need a car, you call me and I'm going to wait until the last day of the month and you'll be the last deal I put through, and I'm going to tell my manager, give this guy the best deal possible because he's the last deal we need to put through in order for the dealership to get their hold back.

And for me to make, you know, employee of the month and they'll put whatever I put down on the piece of paper through, and you get that phone call on the 29th or the 30th of the month, and they have the exact car you want with the exact stuff. And they're like, okay, Brian, come down with your check and you can drive off. I'll have it ready for you in a half hour.

And sure enough, you're good to go. And that guy got what he wanted. You were the last deal of the month that put him over the top.

And maybe you had to wait two months, right? Maybe you had to wait two months for that to happen, but he knew you were going to make it easy on him. You knew he was going to make it easy on you.

And this is probably your third or fourth car that you bought from the guy because you bought your girl's cars there.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yeah, you sound like you know exactly my situation because the last car I bought was from a guy that I've bought a bunch of cars from and I called him and I said, I see this car online, he said, it's not here, it's coming. I said, okay, I want it. I'm not coming in.

I'm not coming in. So get the paperwork ready, do whatever you need to do. And he did.

And we, I think we talked about one or two issues and there was nothing really. And I took the car home, you know, a couple of days later.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Right. You didn't, you didn't give him your license and he held it until you signed the paperwork.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Right. I even asked him, I said, can I put a deposit down on it? He said, no.

He said, I'll, I'll, I'll save it for you.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. No, no, no. That's, that's the value of the relationships and the networking.

So let's, let's shift gears and let's talk a little bit about structured networking. And you know, my introduction to structured networking was when I, when I was looking at buying a franchise business, I said, all right, well, tell me about how you find customers. And the guy who was, who was going through the franchise prospectus with me said, Oh, I got shortcut for you.

You're going to, uh, when you move to this new community that you're moving to, I want you to go on this website. And he gave me the BNI website. He said, look up anybody on that website and you tell them that you're a business owner and that you're looking to do business in the community.

They'll return your call. He said, if you tell them you're a business owner and you're looking to do business in the community, they'll return your call. They may even invite you to a meeting.

And I was like, wow, that's great. Like, what is this, what is this organization? He's like, this organization exists so that small businesses have the same advantage that businesses that have big sales teams do, you can, you can talk to these people, you can tell them who you're looking to meet, and these people are out in the community working hard to build their businesses, they'll introduce you to other people.

That was, and this guy, that was a great introduction for me into what structured networking is. Like if he had said structured networking to me, I would have been like, I would have thought it was people pulling cables in a computer room, right? So what was your introduction to structured networking?

And then tell me about how structured networking organizations shape the way you develop relationships.

[Brian Tannebaum]
So I didn't know anything about structured networking when I got involved and this was in 2002, so 23 years ago, and the way it started was I was at a little cocktail happy hour somewhere and somebody came up to me and said, you know, the line for structured networking, Hey, we have a group of people and we meet once a week and, you know, we'd love to have a criminal defense lawyer, you know, why don't you come by, breakfast is on me.

Okay. Came by, met some people, and the interesting thing, and I think this is important for people thinking about this because in structured networking, you have your typical, you have your real estate lawyer, you have your florist, you know, you have, you know, people who do typical things and then there was me. So when I started in BNI, there were I think 17 chapters in Miami.

There was not a single criminal defense lawyer. There was resistance. I don't know if you ever knew this.

There was a resistance to admitting me because the word was, one of the members said, well, we don't think someone's going to stand up at seven o'clock in the morning and say, I have a referral for the criminal defense lawyer because it may raise whatever issue and that, you know, went by its wayside, they admitted me, and my first year in BNI, I think I made $53,000. Now you may say, well, oh, were you charging, you know, $25,000 a case? No, not, no, no, no, no, no, no.

I had been a lawyer for seven years. Okay. So when I say $53,000, that wasn't just a couple of cases, but it worked.

Why? Because in structured networking, it's not just about the people in the room. Like you said, they're out there trying to help you get business.

So you have a room of 20, 30, 40, 50, more people out there trying to help you get business. And you're trying to help them too. And you're also getting to know them.

The thing about structured networking is you get to learn about people and not only what they do, but, but who they are. And that's, that's important because you get to put those people in rooms. You know what I'm saying?

It's like, oh, I know into X. I'm going to introduce you to someone who's also into X. Oh, you're into airplanes.

Oh, I know someone who's in air. You know? So it's like, you really get to know people when you're with them more than just, you know, at a happy hour, if it's once a month or every couple of weeks or whatever, so I am a very strong believer, you know, in, in structured networking.

And after I got into BNI, I started encouraging other criminal defense lawyers to be in BNI. Now it's like, there's like a line to be the criminal defense lawyer in a BNI chapter, which I'm very proud of. Um, I'm no longer in BNI, but, um, it was one of the greatest things I ever did.

[Dave Lorenzo]
So I'll tell you that the value of having someone who does what you do in your network is immeasurable because if someone calls me and they need you, whether they need you for ethics work, and I work with, I still work with lawyers. I used to work with, I used to work exclusively with lawyers. I still work with a lot of lawyers.

But if somebody calls me and their bar license is on the line, their license to practice law is on the line. Or if someone calls me and they've been accused of something and they have to go for an interview with the FBI, or they have to go for a conversation with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and I refer them to you and you help them, regardless of whether the outcome is, you know, overwhelmingly favorable, like they get off completely free, or they just, they have a better result than they would have had, had they tried to tackle it on their own because of the stakes associated with what I'm sending them to you for, they are always, they always think of me favorably.

So having someone who does what you do, it's like having an oncologist in your network or, you know, having someone who handles something that's, that, that's incredibly, that's incredibly high stakes in your network and having them take care of the people and having them treat the people with, so they keep their dignity intact, regardless of the result. It's always going to make you, the referrer, look better. So, you know, to the people who didn't, didn't understand the value of that, the value of that is immeasurable in having someone who, who handles high stakes issues in your, in your network.

You know, the, there's, there's stories that I've heard. I wasn't in, I wasn't in our group at the time, but you guys have told stories about the guy who sells jets, right? He was in your, he's in your B&I group.

So there's a guy who sells jets next to the lady who does dog training, right? And, you know, you guys were thinking to yourselves, what the hell is this guy going to get out of being in this group? Turns out that guy got like three referrals in the, in the four years he was in the group and that like put his kids through college.

Like he only needed one referral to pay off him being, you know, him being in the group for 20 years. And here's the thing, the value of the group, having a guy who sold jets, and at one point we had a guy who sold jets and a woman who sold yachts in the group, like the value of the group, it elevated the status of the group. So when people came into that room as guests, they were like, yeah, we got a florist and we have the massage therapist and we have the dog trainer.

But we all, you got a guy who sells, you know, who sells $20 million aircraft. You got a woman who sells, you know, a $7 million boats in this room. Like it elevated the status of everyone else in the room and it, it, it built up their personal brands.

So the value is not just in the work that you get, it's the perception of people based on the group that you're in.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Right. And I think that one of the misconceptions about networking and you, you know, you and I used to deal with this in BNI, somebody would get into BNI and 60 days later, they would say, I haven't gotten a referral and we would sit down with them and we would talk to them about, you know, well, have you really sat down with these people, this and that? And so I had a rule.

I still have the rule. I always tell people when they meet me, cause now I have this joke, people meet me and the last thing they say to me is, I hope I never need you and I go, don't say that because the last guy who said that just called me. So, but I always say that if I meet you within six months, you're going to call me about something.

Hopefully you're not in trouble, but you're going to call me about something. I don't know what it's going to be, but it's going to be about something. And invariably it happens that someone's like, oh my God, I was in this meeting today and your name came up and somebody said that they needed X, Y, Z, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, whatever.

So the patience factor in networking, I would put it like number 0.5, like above number one, because I think a lot of people, again, we go back to this discussion about transactions or like, wait, I walked in a room of people. I handed out a bunch of business cards. Nobody's hiring me.

What's going on? That's the problem.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. So you gave a very specific number for your first year of dollars that you got. Do you have a system or a method for keeping track of your relationships and your follow-up and stuff?

What do you do?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yeah. So you're not going to like this answer, but the answer is no. And I don't like that.

And I'll tell you why. Okay. I can tell when someone is reaching out to me on what I call a timed basis, every 30 days, every 60 days, every quarter, there's certain people who like call me every quarter.

And I find it a little inorganic. I like to pop in on people, right? I like to hear something, see somebody's name and say, Hey, listen, I am reaching out to you for absolutely no reason.

I just, I thought of you, your name came up in my contacts. I was looking at somebody else and I saw your name and I just wanted to say, hello, I've got nothing to report, nothing to tell you. I hope everything's going well.

I think in other types of things, sometimes you have to keep track because, you know, you're in a business where, you know, somebody may have mentioned to you, they want to, you know, put a generator in their house and you saw generators and you haven't heard from them in 60 days. So you reach back out and you say, Hey, just wanted to, you know, hurricane season is coming, just wanted to check in and make sure, you know, there's nothing I can do for you, but I am very much a proponent of the organic relationship. And so I don't have anything that helps me keep in touch with people other than I hear about them, I see things about them, and that that's, you know, and I reach out to them and that's pretty much it.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Okay. Um, what's the single most important piece of networking advice you would give to somebody who wants to be really good at it and wants to be great at it?

[Brian Tannebaum]
So I, I kind of skipped over that question and already answered it. I think you have to be patient. I have heard over and over again.

Yeah. You know, I joined BNI, it didn't work for me. Or, you know, I keep going to these happy hours and like nothing's happening.

That's your problem. That's not the problem of anything else going on. That is absolutely what you're doing is wrong.

You're either being too salesy or you're not having the right conversations with people. You know, for example, it's like, you know, mortgage brokers and I keep bringing them up. But what they love to say to people is, Hey, I can get you like the best rate.

No, no, you can't. You really can't. Everybody says that.

Great. There's a bank or there's a lender and you know, whatever. Maybe I'm going to get a little bit off here or there.

Maybe you're going to waive some kind of fee or something. Okay. But let's like, why should I use you?

Here's why you should use me as a mortgage broker. First of all, I'm going to come to your house. Oh, okay.

That's a big thing these days. Like Miami's got a lot of traffic. Like, Oh, you're going to come to my house.

Yeah. I can do a lot of things on Zoom. Here's how I do things.

You have a portal, you know, you sign the documents once, you know, it's kind of like, you know, you always talk about this, make doing business with people easy, right? Don't make it difficult to do business with somebody. So what makes, you know, the whole BNI thing, what makes you different?

Like you're a mortgage broker. You go to a lender, you go, we need a half a million dollar mortgage and they give you a rate and sign some documents. So I think networking requires a tremendous amount of patience because like you said, we talked about good business comes from how much somebody trusts you and obviously how much they respect you and it's just not from getting a business card.

So my single piece of advice on networking is to be patient. I love it. That's awesome.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Who's the one person in your network you think people should know more about and why?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Yeah. So this is unfair and I really apologize. I thought about this question.

You know, it's you and I'll tell you why, because I know, but here's the thing. I'm not looking for that. But I have a reason for it, right?

Because, you know, I'm a lawyer, right? So who do you find as advisors and mentors? Lawyers.

But law is in two areas. You have the practice of law, which is if I'm going to figure out like how to deal with the judge or how to deal with a certain case that I have, or, you know, I'm thinking about filing this motion, I'm not going to talk to Dave Lorenzo about that. But everything else, which is a big part of practicing law, which is the business of law, running a law firm, developing relationships, dealing with staff, understanding client control, things like that come from non-lawyers.

And I've always said, if you as a lawyer want really good advice about your law practice, do not talk to a lawyer. Because every lawyer does it differently. There are sole practitioners, there are mid-sized firms, there are large firms.

If you're having questions about how to run your law firm, talk to somebody who knows business, not law, because lawyers are not very good business people. So, you know, and I may have not told you this directly, but this is a good opportunity, when I want advice on those kinds of things, I don't talk to a lawyer. I talk to you.

I tell you, listen, I'm thinking about this. I'm thinking about that. Or, you know, what do you think about this?

Because you have a different perspective than a lawyer. And I think it does lawyers a disservice to constantly rely on the advice of lawyers for everything about the practice. And like I said, a lawyer who needs advice about the practice of law, not just courtroom stuff and litigation, should always talk to somebody who is not a lawyer.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. I, you know, I want to get into, I want you to tell a really good networking story, but before you do, I'm going to tell a good networking story about you and people that I've met through you.

So I, obviously I've met the most eclectic bunch of people through you. I mean, there's, I will never forget the line. There's somebody, I can't remember who we were.

You and I were talking to somebody and it was somebody who was being a little elitist and I don't know if it was about admission to a group or whatever. And the person said, well, we don't want to, we don't want to, we don't want to let in convicted felons. And you're like, I have convicted felons in my house.

You come to a party in my house. Half the people there are going to be convicted felons. So I meet the best people hanging around with you.

So for those of you who don't know, like Brian, the two thirds of the world is covered by water. The other third is covered by Tannenbaum. So I am, I'm getting on a plane in Las Vegas, coming back to Miami from an Eagles concert and there's a backup up the aisle and I see, like sitting in the second to last row of first class, someone who I know I met at Tannenbaum's house, I know exactly who this person is.

So I, I quickly text him. I'm like, is so-and-so in Vegas? Yes.

It's his, it's his whatever, 50th anniversary or 30th anniversary. And they went to see the Eagles. So I walk up to the person in Las Vegas and I say, Hey, and I call him by his name and Hey, Mrs. Blah, blah, blah. I shake both of their hands. I'm like, happy anniversary. Did you enjoy the show?

And these people are floored. They're absolutely flabbergasted. And I'm like, I'm a friend of Tannenbaum's.

And the guy goes, of course I met you at his house, at his wine room, blah, blah, blah. He immediately remembers. I mean, this is like the rich tapestry that we create when we develop relationships and that guy is somewhere telling that story at some point to someone, can you believe I'm on a plane coming back our anniversary and some guy, random guy approaches me who I met through Tannenbaum knows everybody.

He's saying to someone right now, exactly what I said, that Tannenbaum knows everyone. What a great brand to have as somebody who gets their business by being referred to other people when the stakes are high. So that's a great networking story involving you.

What's a good networking story that you have that, where you benefited or your business benefited?

[Brian Tannebaum]
So, and it goes along with the philosophy. And I was talking about this this morning when I was speaking to the law students and I spoke to them about a lot of things, including developing a practice. And I said, defocus your networking.

And what I mean by that is don't go to things that you're, you should go to, right, you're a lawyer, you should go to lawyer happy hours and lawyer events and things like that. No, no, no, no, no. Go to something different.

And so I always tell the story years ago, a doctor who I knew invited me to a happy hour of doctors. And I was like, well, I'm not a personal injury lawyer. I don't deal with doctors.

I'm not even an estate lawyer. Like I'm a criminal guy, you know, like, okay, I'll go. And I went and it was really nice.

They had like really great food. I mean, I remember this big bowl of shrimp. I always talk about the big bowl of shrimp.

And so all of a sudden, like an hour and a half into it, like I've got a circle around in this room of these doctors who are just like fascinated listening to my like, you know, stories about criminal court and this and that and whatever. And I left. And as time went on, a couple of weeks later, maybe the next day or something, I got a call from two of the doctors that they were having licensing issues.

And back then I was doing some non-lawyer licensing stuff. So I like consulted with them and, you know, and I was like, okay, well, there's the answer right there. Like, I didn't want to go to this event.

I was like, why am I going to go? Like, there's nobody, you know, for me here, but whatever, I'll just go. And it turned out to be beneficial for me, for my business at the time.

And I only represent lawyers now, but it goes along with my other philosophy. You know, I always tell this, I don't want to say it's a joke, but people are like, I say, listen, you get invited to a hockey game. I don't want to hear you say I don't like hockey.

No, you need to think like, wait, you want to hang out with me for four hours and drink a beer and have a hot dog? Like, I don't really care what's going on in front of me. Maybe it'll be fun.

But I always get annoyed when people are like, yeah, I'm not going to that. I'm really I'm not into like yoga. I'm not into hockey.

I'm not into doctors. I'm just I'm just into what I'm into, you know, and you don't realize like there's a whole world out there. So that story to me has always stuck that I went to something I didn't want to go to.

I met some people and all of a sudden, you know, of the six people standing around me, two of them called me and said, hey, you know, can you help us with with some issues that we're having? So I think that's, you know, an important factor in defocusing your networking.

[Dave Lorenzo]
No, that's great. Terrific story. Now, you you've given a lot of advice.

So we're going to wrap up with the one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's who's just starting to build business relationships, right? So they're they're just starting out. What's the what's the one thing that that's probably the most important thing they should either keep in mind or focus on?

What's the biggest piece of advice you can give them?

[Brian Tannebaum]
And this is going to sound very counterintuitive. Ignore yourself as much as you can. What you do is not that interesting.

I don't care what you do. It's not it's not that interesting. And you need to learn about the person in front of you.

The conversation will eventually turn to you because there's that concept, as you know, when you're talking to someone and they feel like you're asking them too many questions, they're not getting uncomfortable, but they kind of feel guilty, like the conversation is all about me. Hey, tell me about yourself. OK, fine.

We can move the conversation eventually to me. But I'm I'm here to learn about you. I want to know what you're all about.

I'm not you know, my business card is in my pocket. I may give you one. I may not, you know, but I think you ignore yourself as much as possible, which, again, is counterintuitive as a young business person.

What are you trying to do more than anything? Build your business. And you feel like building your business is by taking a megaphone and screaming at the rooftops.

Hey, I'm a mortgage broker. I'm a real estate agent. I sell life insurance.

Like that's not what people want to hear. They want to hear like, hey, what do you what do you what do you got there? Is that pizza?

What are you eating there? Like where, you know, and you just start having to ask the dumb questions. Where are you from?

Where'd you go to school? You know, conversations are not that difficult to start. And I think people feel like you got to ask a certain question.

You don't have to ask a certain question. You can just ask a typical question. Hey, where are you from?

You know, that's, that's, you know, people say, well, you shouldn't ask that question, but, you know, I don't see what the problem is with asking that question. But I think you always want to lead with ignoring yourself as much as you can, because otherwise people get defensive and start to think like, oh, you're just here to sell me something.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Right. I think that's great advice. And the, the, the exploration you're doing, you just might discover a big challenge that they have or a problem that they need to be solved.

And you file that away until you find someone who can help them with that challenge or help them solve that problem. And if by chance you're that person down the road, that's the opportunity for you. So if you're talking to them and they say, Hey, you know, I'm going to be buying a house and, you know, I want to get the best possible deal, but, you know, dealing with mortgage brokers is a huge pain in the ass and I hate these guys are always trying to sell me.

And you happen to know a mortgage broker who will come to their home and who will walk them through the breakdown of how rates work and what points are and how they get compensated so that everything is transparent and it's friction-free to work with them down the road. You can say to them the next day, you can call and follow up and say, you know, you mentioned you're, you were buying a house and my buddy Joe is a mortgage broker who comes to the home and he's very transparent, would you like an introduction, you know, that piece of advice that you gave, not talking about yourself, asking questions about them. That's the secret to converting networking into business, learning what they need and providing it.

And if you don't provide it, introducing them to people and keep solving problems, eventually they're going to ask you for help with a problem you can solve.

[Brian Tannebaum]
I just want to say one last thing, because a couple of weeks ago, I was at a dinner at someone's house and he sat me with these three people. One of them was a finance guy. One of them was in film and one of them had just retired.

And it was a wine thing. So we're talking, we're eating, we're talking about the wine, this and that. What do you do?

What do you do? What do you... All of a sudden, one of the guys realized like late in the dinner, it was almost over and turned to me and said, wait, what do you do?

And I said, I'm a lawyer. And they all screamed like, what? Like they were shocked.

They were like, no way. And I'm like, yeah, they were, and I could just tell it was that like, wait, you didn't start with that as the conversation. And it made me feel really good at that moment.

I was like, these guys are really surprised that we've been sitting here for two and a half hours and nobody knew that I was a lawyer.

[Dave Lorenzo]
Yeah. Well, Brian, thank you so much. I am, I am grateful that you shared your wisdom with us on networking.

And of course I'm, I'm incredibly grateful for the 18 years of friendship. So thank you for everything. I really appreciate you.

If people want to get in touch with you, how can they get in touch with you?

[Brian Tannebaum]
Uh, find me on LinkedIn. My email is my name, brianatbaum.com. And, uh, I respond to my emails.

[Dave Lorenzo]
And it's Tanabaum with two N's. There's no extra N in there. It's the first thing, when you become friends with Brian, you get a test and removing that end is you have to pass that test in order to be in a room with him from that point forward.

So it's T-A-N-N-E-B-A-U-M. That's how you find Brian. Brian, thank you.

It's a pleasure.

[Brian Tannebaum]
Thank you, Dave.